Three Dead in Houston Cirrus Crash

Murdoughnut said:
So if we've learned anything from this, take some time to teach your students when to deny an ATC request.
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If unsafe to do so, or they are really physically unable to do so, then yes it's your job as a pilot to say unable. Maybe the average GA pilot doesn't fly enough like the airline guys do when it comes to being comfortable to say things like "unable" or "declaring emergency."



10:25

Declaring an emergency and getting vectors for the ILS may have saved his life.
 
Yeah, that is painful to listen too, I wouldn't be so quick to judge the pilot though.

Edit: The live ATC that is, you actually have to start listening on the previous 30 min recording.
 
Runway at HOU is longer and wider than her home field, my bet is that "visually" the runways looked the same in her sight picture; no wonder she was high on BOTH approaches. Hey all you CFI's out there, take your students to large airports so they get a feel for a busy traffic flow AND get a visual perspective of runway length/width with respect to aircraft position.

RIP.....
 
dustoff17 said:
Runway at HOU is longer and wider than her home field, my bet is that "visually" the runways looked the same in her sight picture; no wonder she was high on BOTH approaches. Hey all you CFI's out there, take your students to large airports so they get a feel for a busy traffic flow AND get a visual perspective of runway length/width with respect to aircraft position.

RIP.....
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My former CFI and friend, less than five minutes ago, JUST commented the same exact thing to me. I fly into KHOU and KEFD often. The tower farm to the southwest of the airport, Southwest Airlines flying into the airport like bees to a hive, "caution, wake turbulence." Lot to digest.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:



"Cut it in tight" is the last thing heard in now two accidents. Sure, it's not the controllers fault. But if we can show that this phrase has caused people (obviously not you) but many other people to overreact, and then stall and fatally crash, then the whole situation needs to be examined.
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Or some people need to learn the word "unable."
 
If I read this correctly she was on her FOURTH landing attempt in 16 minutes when she crashed. It appeared that she missed on three attempts to RWY 04 or RWY 35 - hard to tell because she was wandering between both of their approach paths. She had just missed her third approach (RWY 35), was being vectored left traffic to RWY 04 for the 4th approach when she crashed N of RWY 17-35 at the Ace Hardware parking lot.
 
dustoff17 said:
Runway at HOU is longer and wider than her home field, my bet is that "visually" the runways looked the same in her sight picture; no wonder she was high on BOTH approaches. Hey all you CFI's out there, take your students to large airports so they get a feel for a busy traffic flow AND get a visual perspective of runway length/width with respect to aircraft position.

RIP.....
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You can always land long if you are high, the sequencing was atrocious and there was a gusty tailwind component...
 
greg1016 said:
You can always land long if you are high, the sequencing was atrocious and there was a gusty tailwind component, they should have put her on 17 not 35 and she'd have almost the entire length of the runway to land and hold short.
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I'm pretty sure the winds were 090@13-ish on her attempts at 35.

17 wouldn't make much difference.
 
dustoff17 said:
Runway at HOU is longer and wider than her home field, my bet is that "visually" the runways looked the same in her sight picture; no wonder she was high on BOTH approaches. Hey all you CFI's out there, take your students to large airports so they get a feel for a busy traffic flow AND get a visual perspective of runway length/width with respect to aircraft position.

RIP.....
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Coming in a little high and landing long because it's a runway you're not used to is one thing, missing three approaches then balling it up on a go around says there was a whole lot more going on than just a different airport.
 
greg1016 said:
The extra landing distance prior to the intersection of 4 would
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Was she given a LAHSO? If so I apologize in advance but as far as i know there's 6000' of concrete on 17 or 35.

I'm based out of HOU and depart 35 on occasion but we never land 17 or 35.

Am I missing something?
 
Mikerohren said:
Who signed this poor lady off to fly??? Sounds like either complete confusion or lack of training... Heres a transcript of the comms.. http://www.khou.com/news/investigat...io-traffic-details-pilots-struggles/238400198
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What I find hard to get my head around is if you're THAT uncomfortable with a high density, Bravo airport environment, why even go there in the first place? Theres's a dozen other airports, particularly KSGR in the area that are easier to get into and out of.
 
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Murdoughnut said:
So if we've learned anything from this, take some time to teach your students when to deny an ATC request.
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This is my no 1 thing on things you should have been taught at flight school. Thankfully I had my dad to drive that point home. He tells this story of when he was doing Instruction in the day. He was a former ATC that became a pilot, and one of his fellow ATCs was learning to fly. My dad tells him that ATC can kill you if you allow them to. This fellow was offended by this, and so my dad said "tell you what. If by the end of today's sim session you're alive, I'm buying dinner wherever you want. If you're dead, you're buying wherever I want". So the wage was set. Long story short, after a while in IMC my dad basically vectored into a cloud's bony structure (Mountain). Never accept an ATC instruction unless you're ahead of the outcome of doing so, whereas it is vectors, altitudes or traffic.

BTW the other things that should be taught at flight school:

1) learn to say no
2) gear up? Bring food on board.
3) ALWAYS have a jacket handy
4 learn to play tetris with luggage.

Take care
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Second time in recent history a controller told a Cirrus pilot to "keep it in tight" and the Cirrus pilot overreacted and stalled/spun to the ground. First time was at Melborne, Florida a couple years ago.


Although it is the pilot fault for stalling an airplane and losing control, this controller should have known better. The exchange lasted a good 15 minutes, and that's just the online published transcript. He should have seen she's in over her head and just have her clear away while the important traffic lands. She couldn't follow a 737 in, it's not likely she'll follow a 747 in either. Way too much interaction done in a high workload environment for both pilot and controller.

Anyway, the term "cut it in tight" should be struck from any ATC manual and vernacular. There are GA guys that will panic at that and over bank at a low airspeed low to the ground. Sure recipe for a fatal stall.
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That and instead of changing to runway 4, which still yields a crosswind, why didn't they give her one of the 12's?
 
That was painful to read. Hobby and that airspace in general are pretty varsity for an inexperienced pilot, or at least one that doesn't know the ins and outs of VFR flying in that specific environment. I feel for the lady. Just wish she would have admitted defeat that day, landed somewhere else, and sought some advice (maybe at a place such as this, if too embarrassed to speak with a local CFI) and mentoring before trying it again. There is no shame in admitting you are in over your head in this business, even if theoretically you shouldn't be based on your certificate.
 
DeltaAlphaNovember said:
I did read the article. And I stand by my original post. Put me on ignore if you would like.
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Nah, no need for that, and I apologize for the sanctimonious tone of my post.

I just thought the general consensus around here was to wait until we knew everything about the crash. The whole, "yeah, it could happen to me," thing. But I guess enough is known that that isn't a factor. Whatever. I'm learning.
 
MFT1Air said:
Live ATC transcript.

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/khou/KHOU-Jun-09-2016-1730Z.mp3 (I believe the start point is 24:45)

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/khou/KHOU-Jun-09-2016-1800Z.mp3

Rest In Peace!
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Just listened to the audio. Having not spent any time in higher performance singles, is there something about the aircraft that makes chopping altitude on final particularly difficult?

Have to say from listening to it that the controllers seemed very patient with her considering the workload and her obvious difficulties operating the aircraft.
 
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