Thoughts on this?

[word302]

Honestly the only time I questioned my choices to jump into aviation late in life (mid-thirties) was when I was a junior captain at Skywest. Movement is pretty slow there in the left seat due to all the lifers (I think there are less of them now), especially on the west coast. The abuse you get on reserve is pretty insane. I can't for a second imagine being a DEC there where you literally never move up. I upgraded at the end of 2017 so covid hit soon after that and movement slowed. I remember sitting in my rented room over Christmas and not being able to get ahold of my family thinking what the hell am I doing. It gets a little better with seniority, but the work rules there are abysmal and nobody cares to fix it cuz they're either senior enough to not feel it or think they'll be out of there before it matters.

Signed: someone who fought to get ALPA onboard for over 5 years.

 

[🦈💜]

Honestly the only time I questioned my choices to jump into aviation late in life (mid-thirties) was when I was a junior captain at Skywest. Movement is pretty slow there in the left seat due to all the lifers (I think there are less of them now), especially on the west coast. The abuse you get on reserve is pretty insane. I can't for a second imagine being a DEC there where you literally never move up. I upgraded at the end of 2017 so covid hit soon after that and movement slowed. I remember sitting in my rented room over Christmas and not being able to get ahold of my family thinking what the hell am I doing. It gets a little better with seniority, but the work rules there are abysmal and nobody cares to fix it cuz they're either senior enough to not feel it or think they'll be out of there before it matters.

Signed: someone who fought to get ALPA onboard for over 5 years.

I was on the last two drives, and leadership on this last one, but I gave up this spring when a few milbros took over the OC and started making unilateral decisions, one of which was to move the OC chat to a different platform despite 50% of the people saying they didn't want that.

I also had one of those milbros go off on me about being a furry (due to my telegram user icon) and how it was inappropriate for a "professional" environment.

It's been radio silence since then, so I'm guessing the drive is dead. Not surprising, given the aforementioned.

The thing is, I'm fully willing to accept that my job is specifically the worst job in the industry, and that I'm too much of a trash animal to move on. But what I have trouble with is that when I say that, people come out of the woodwork to talk about how their schedules and work rules look like mine, or are worse. I feel like I'm being gaslit, and so when I come across an article like the one in the original post that compares strongly to my own experience, it seems like a reasonable baseline to check.

I also think people far too easily dismiss the long-term physical and mental health impacts of all of these factors.

Thanks to those who read and responded.

 

[Hiboglossi]

Finally read the essay last night. Certainly, the complaints in it could come across as whiny, particularly if you have a more difficult job, or one with a less employee-friendly job market, which as I understand it is most jobs right now. But it's hard to argue that it isn't largely correct. Especially since we often hear about how statistically, most airline pilots who retire at age 65 perish within a few years afterward, even though average U.S. life expectancy is now in the upper 70s.

 

[GloverMan]

I failed myself earlier in life making poor choices and not going into a different career, but it has turned out relatively OK. Have ~33 years left to go in the left seat but I do wonder sometimes how I screwed it up back when I was 20.

 

[Beaker]

Especially since we often hear about how statistically, most airline pilots who retire at age 65 perish within a few years afterward, even though average U.S. life expectancy is now in the upper 70s.

I don't know that this comparison has ever actually been done in a robust way (as in cohort to cohort). If it has, I'd love to read about it.

("Average age of a deceased pilot" is not the same property as life expectancy)

 

[BobDDuck]

I don't know that this comparison has ever actually been done in a robust way (as in cohort to cohort). If it has, I'd love to read about it.

("Average age of a deceased pilot" is not the same property as life expectancy)

It was based off of one Delta study done about 25 years ago.

I don't think it was particularly "sciency" science.

We tracked it for about 10 years over here, and I think the average was pretty close to the actuarial average for the date of birth, with a very small sample size though.

 

[Hiboglossi]

It was based off of one Delta study done about 25 years ago.

I don't think it was particularly "sciency" science.

We tracked it for about 10 years over here, and I think the average was pretty close to the actuarial average for the date of birth, with a very small sample size though.

I thought it was from Delta, didn't realize the data was that old though. I specifically recall people on here saying it was talking about pilots who retired at age 65 but obviously that can't be accurate if it's from 25 years ago.

 

[thepotato232]

We had a fairly detailed discussion of the data a couple of years ago in the thread "Skiles and Age 65+." In short, it was an informal survey (not a 'study' in the strictest terms) in the late aughts of current and former Delta pilots who died within a window of several years. It was a snapshot of deceased pilots, including unfortunates who died in their mid-20s, but living pilots had no statistical weight. An actual 'study' would have been ongoing, and the data would have been constantly updated as subjects died over the years and decades since the study window opened. The average age of those people who died when the results were shared was 66.49 years.

It's not that the survey was "bad," it's just that we've played the telephone game with it without context for a few decades and it's often presented as definitive evidence that we're all doomed to an early grave (unless we make the exact same lifestyle choices and buy the exact same scam supplements as the speaker).

 

[JordanD]

It was based off of one Delta study done about 25 years ago.

I don't think it was particularly "sciency" science.

We tracked it for about 10 years over here, and I think the average was pretty close to the actuarial average for the date of birth, with a very small sample size though.

I’d have to imagine lifestyles are very different now too. A lot more “I’m gonna hit the gym and sleep in” versus “party town!”, although I haven’t seen a trip conducive to that culture in years.

 

[podrick]

I’d have to imagine lifestyles are very different now too. A lot more “I’m gonna hit the gym and sleep in” versus “party town!”, although I haven’t seen a trip conducive to that culture in years.

RJ kids these days would be disgusted by how much of my regional diet consisted of Dunkin and protein bars.

Now it’s influencers being like watch how I budget, yoga, and meal prep on only 90k/year

 

[JordanD]

RJ kids these days would be disgusted by how much of my regional diet consisted of Dunkin and protein bars.

Now it’s influencers being like watch how I budget, yoga, and meal prep on only 90k/year

I luckily mostly missed that era of RJ pay, but “I guess I’m going to have sleep for dinner.” comes to mind.

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

RJ kids these days would be disgusted by how much of my regional diet consisted of Dunkin and protein bars.

Now it’s influencers being like watch how I budget, yoga, and meal prep on only 90k/year

Protein bars. Look at Mr. Fancy Pants over here.

To be clear, I started flying with the intention of flying professionally in 1996. I've flown under 135 scheduled rules. And while the pay is better, $180k as a regional captain is ~$96k in 2000. And the difference between those two figures is not insignificant—$180k isn't enough to buy a house in base, whereas $95k was closer.

I feel you on that one. An inflation calculator doesn't really factor in the disproportionate amount of inflation specifically in housing in just the last 10 years or so.

I came on here a while back stating that the job was damaging my mental and physical health, and the responses were basically "suck it up, buttercup," and talking about how the schedules I posted didn't look any worse than the normal mainline narrowbody schedules.

I think there were very few people telling you to suck it up. From my recollection, there was a wide range of opinions, including downgrading, changing jobs, etc. DEC at a regional is one of the worst jobs in the industry, outside of some dirt ball 135 operators, but I think you knew that going into it.

I sometimes feel like this is schrödinger's industry—depending on who you ask, and who's asking, and the time of day, and whether the pilot is in bragging mode, humble bragging mode, or complaining mode, pilots either work all the time or never work. We either get 30 hour overnights on the beach or are signing contracts with our employer where we acknowledge that the job will lead to lower life expectancy.

I think this is probably because everyone has different priorities, sleep schedules, preferences, etc. Also, airline schedules vary wildly, even at the same airline, depending on equipment and base. Just as an example, at my airline, some bases do a ton of transcons and redeyes, whereas in my base, we do a lot of regional type of flying, with some 4 and 5 leg days to places like Omaha and Des Moines. It also has to do with movement. From my understanding, there hasn't been much movement at the regional level, but we have a ton of retirements at the legacies, so you don't stay at the bottom of the list very long.

I think the lack of discourse is probably just because we won't want to dwell on the fact that this job is shaving years off our lives. Between radiation, fume events, fatigue, and diet, it's amazing we don't have a higher death rate. I don't really know how you could solve these issues at an airline. It is what it is.