Thoughts on evacuation

[MikeD]

Probably a good question to pose to @MikeD and @Bumblebee as both have firefighting experience, but not specifically airport ARFF stuff I think..

CFR/ARFF is a fair part of my contract work.

I never really gave much thought about positioning the aircraft for smoke. I'd think access from the fire trucks would be more important, although if you are going to pop the doors it would be a lot easier if there wasn't a huge plume of smoke going by..

Not just smoke, but fire. Reference British Airtours/ Manchester 1985. There was no way for the crew to know what they had, so this isn't on them, it's just a bad-luck finding; however had that 737 crew stopped straight ahead instead of turning off the runway to clear the runway then stopping, they'd have prevented the wind-driven fire that was whipping over/under the fuselage and quickly cause compromise and collapse of the rear fuselage, as well as making all exits aft of the overwing exits unusable. Again, there's no way they could've known the extent of what they had, they assumed they had an engine fire based on the fire warning, they weren't aware they had an uncontained failure that penetrated the fuel cell. There were other problems as well, with the firefighting effort, even though it still holds the fastest response to on-scene time from a no-notice call.

My prior employer was pretty keen on getting everyone off the aircraft as quickly as possible if something happened. I don't know how much of that was an insurance and liability decision vs safety.

Lots of good reasons to hold off pointed out above (by people more experienced than me).

One scenario that scared me, imagine its 8pm at night your taking off of 36L at GFK and the #1 engine pops and catches fire just prior to V1. You abort, it appears the fire is out (light and aural warning is out) but there's a lot of smoke and your not 100% sure. Meanwhile, it's -40 out with the windchill (most people have they're coats packed away since the flight is headed to St Pete) with blowing snow and 3/4 vis.

Thoughts? How long would it take ARFF to get 150+ pax clear of the aircraft and back inside the terminal at that point?

There's a lot of good reasons to not evacuate the aircraft in certain situations. Other times, its more than prudent. Reasons ranging from the outside being more unsafe than the inside, to where the pax are going to go and their safety, to being in the way of responders, to any host of reasons.

There's no timeframe on how long it would take the airport police or ops people to clear 150+ people, as that depends on a host of factors also. Transportation availability, type and quantity, etc.

 

[MikeD]

I generally think about any sort of unidentifiable actual fire onboard (with caveats!) or loss of structural integrity of the aircraft (nosegear collapse).

My fear is that if we have a cargo fire indication, but if the temps are relatively normal, if I do an evacuation all it's going to do is put more people in danger of getting run't over taking selfies as the fire department pierces the bin to confirm. But then I have the luxury of knowing the compartment temperature.

I don't know, just stream of consciousness writing here, but an evacuation is a GUARANTEE of having injuries so it kind of just "depends" on the circumstances. Identifiable fire that we weren't able to quench, we're probably jumping out.

Be more afraid of an Unidentifiable fire, than an indentifiable one. The one you can see, you know is there and can plan against. The one that would scare the heck out of me as CFR is entering an aircraft cabin with smoke, yet no fire readily seen.

 

[typhoonpilot]

The thing about training that I found interesting was that, in ever sim I've been in anyway, we train the evacuation through actually running the checklist. You hit the last item, the sim goes dark and the instructor says "ok, good job. Let's go debrief now". Several years ago, as part of Captain Charm School, we listened to a CVR from an incident that the airline had had, that eventually led to an evacuation. The amount of confusion about "what next" AFTER they got a handle on what had happened was so clear that I started to entirely rethink the process.



Where I am now, teaches to configure for an evac any time you come to a stop on the runway (post RTO or emergency landing). Basically just getting the flaps to 25, disarming the spoilers, getting the emergency lights on and checking that the cabin is depressurized. At that point we are supposed to split, the captain talks to the back to check on the cabin and the FO checks with ATC or ARFF to see what the oustide looks like. Then we are supposed to come back together and make a decision on what to do. I never really gave much thought about positioning the aircraft for smoke. I'd think access from the fire trucks would be more important, although if you are going to pop the doors it would be a lot easier if there wasn't a huge plume of smoke going by.

And as far as the OP... Reasons to bail out other than fire. Bomb. Fire on an airplane next to you or a massive fuel spill coming towards you and you aren't under power.

All good information.

The evacuation at the end of the sim session and then going home thing is pretty universal. Doesn't matter how bad it went, guys feel they are finished once it's accomplished. It actually is nice for an instructor to debrief the evacuation, then repeat it. When that is done it goes much smoother the second time around and the guys come out of the sim feeling much more confident in how they will handle the situation should it occur for real.

We had extensive debates about angling the aircraft more into the wind in the event of stopping on the runway. One camp was of the thought that doing so would impede the emergency vehicles thus stopping straight ahead was better. The other camp was aware of the possibility of fire/smoke coming into/over the cabin ( in the event of an engine fire with most modern twin/four engine aircraft ). One day we had the head of the airport fire services at our training meeting and the question came up. His name was Kelvin Burnell ( heck of a name for a fire chief, but I digress ). His response was that it would be nice if we could angle into the wind for the above mentioned reasons and that it is an airport requirement that the infield must be able to support the weight of the heaviest emergency vehicle. So if angling the aircraft means the emergency response vehicles must drive on the grass/dirt a little that should not be a problem. He had been the fire chief at Manchester so was keenly aware of the effects that wind might have on an engine fire situation.


TP

 

[MikeD]

At the last shop, running out of halon bottles on engines or apu was a mandatory evacuation. The idea was that if you had no ability to fight the fire, then you have no business having people on the aircraft.

Agree with this.

Current shop wants you to evaluate the fire. Blew the bottles but it went out? Go to the gate. Blew the bottles and you can't keep it under control? Get off the plane.

Evaluate the fire......how would you really know if it's truly out? Something ignited it.....something was the ignition source. You may have suppressed the fire, but what would the crew know of the ignition source? I certainly wouldn't take that plane to a gate, then end up with a fire at the gate.

 

[MikeD]

We had extensive debates about angling the aircraft more into the wind in the event of stopping on the runway. One camp was of the thought that doing so would impede the emergency vehicles thus stopping straight ahead was better.

From ARFF perspective, it all depends. How wide is the runway? Is the shoulder or grass area wet/mud? All of this is beyond what many crews would notice in the heat of the moment, so the best thing is to stop where you see fit as the crew, and we'll work the positioning issues around the aircraft. Because where we position is going to depend anyway on what you have as an emergency, where its located, and we'll be moving around anyway.

So for flightcrews to worry about helping the ARFF vehicles out, that's appreciated, but not critical.......we'll make the scene happen with whatever you give us. No problem.

The other camp was aware of the possibility of fire/smoke coming into/over the cabin ( in the event of an engine fire with most modern twin/four engine aircraft ). One day we had the head of the airport fire services at our training meeting and the question came up. His name was Kelvin Burnell ( heck of a name for a fire chief, but I digress ). His response was that it would be nice if we could angle into the wind for the above mentioned reasons and that it is an airport requirement that the infield must be able to support the weight of the heaviest emergency vehicle. So if angling the aircraft means the emergency response vehicles must drive on the grass/dirt a little that should not be a problem. He had been the fire chief at Manchester so was keenly aware of the effects that wind might have on an engine fire situation.

Remember, the British Airtours crew didn't know that they had the severe situation they indeed had. And at the time that day, winds were fairly light. What should've been an engine fire that was contained, turned out to be the severe damage it was. So while the crew stopping straight ahead would've definitely helped based on what we know now (and something good to think about), on that day, they did the best they could.

Manchester's response was a record, but they had issues in their firefighting tactics that prevented them from gaining suppression faster than they did. Again, not any kind of incompetence, just things going on with that fire that they didn't see/notice, and hence didn't apply the best tactic early.

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

At my old airline we had some examples of both good and bad judgement. The one that comes to mind first is the Boston tail strike. They were hit by a large jet flown by some carrier none of y'all probably heard of... /sarcasm

Anyway, even though bells and whistles were going off everywhere and other airplanes were telling them their tail was essentially broken in half, the crew elected to not evacuate. I was impressed with the crew's decisions. They said that they just felt it was safer inside the aircraft than outside the aircraft. It wasn't on fire, and the situation was stable.

I hope I'm that cool and collected if I have an event like that someday.

 

[MikeD]

At my old airline we had some examples of both good and bad judgement. The one that comes to mind first is the Boston tail strike. They were hit by a large jet flown by some carrier none of y'all probably heard of... /sarcasm

Anyway, even though bells and whistles were going off everywhere and other airplanes were telling them their tail was essentially broken in half, the crew elected to not evacuate. I was impressed with the crew's decisions. They said that they just felt it was safer inside the aircraft than outside the aircraft. It wasn't on fire, and the situation was stable.

I hope I'm that cool and collected if I have an event like that someday.

That's what they get paid to do. And they can clearly articulate their reasoning for their judgement call. Well done.

 

[scooter2525]

That is a very good instructor. As @typhoonpilot alluded to earlier, we all revert back to training. I just finished a recurrent simulator session and we did as most seem to do while in the box. We ran the checklist sim went dark for a nanosecond then the lights came on. I guess I have been doing this awhile now because I almost automatically just sit back in my chair and wait to hear what the instructor had to say.

This is a good thread. Lots of new things to think about when time matters and decisions need to be made at 100%.

Since that sim, I've made it a point to continue beyond the CL and perform the event as if it were real. The muscle memory of "to the line" then wait isn't something I want in a real emergency.

 

[Groundpounder]

. His response was that it would be nice if we could angle into the wind for the above mentioned reasons and that it is an airport requirement that the infield must be able to support the weight of the heaviest emergency vehicle. So if angling the aircraft means the emergency response vehicles must drive on the grass/dirt a little that should not be a problem.


TP

What if there is 4' of snow? ARFF trucks are pretty capable, but not sure anything can move around in those kinds of conditions.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Since that sim, I've made it a point to continue beyond the CL and perform the event as if it were real. The muscle memory of "to the line" then wait isn't something I want in a real emergency.

It is downright impressive what good training does.

I remember my first real abort in the airplane. Captain called for it and without even thinking I keyed (and then dropped) the mic to advise ATC and when we came to a stop I was holding the immediate action items card ready to rock.

That said, reviewing that item after you have completed the memory items is kind of dumb. It's basically "idle, brakes, reverses." If you forgot one of those things, reviewing the checklist will only tell you why you are in the grass. "Awe, damnit cap'n. We forgot the wheel brakes."

 

[typhoonpilot]

What if there is 4' of snow? ARFF trucks are pretty capable, but not sure anything can move around in those kinds of conditions.

It doesn't snow in Dubai



TP

 

[MikeD]

What if there is 4' of snow? ARFF trucks are pretty capable, but not sure anything can move around in those kinds of conditions.

In normal dry conditions, the infield area must be able to support. Obviously snow/mud/wet area, etc, will pose a challenge. But as I said, stop your aircraft where you need to and do what you need to do as a pilot. ARFF will handle what they need to do, and flex themselves based on what you do. Helping ARFF out is appreciated, but don't waste too many brain bytes trying to do it when you already have enough going on.

Trucks will get positioned where they do, or else where they can if the position they need for the particular situation at hand isn't available, and they'll make do. Ladders/handlines make up for where the truck can't position, in many cases.

Since that sim, I've made it a point to continue beyond the CL and perform the event as if it were real. The muscle memory of "to the line" then wait isn't something I want in a real emergency.

Slide down the cockpit window rope of the sim and down to the building floor included?

That said, reviewing that item after you have completed the memory items is kind of dumb. It's basically "idle, brakes, reverses." If you forgot one of those things, reviewing the checklist will only tell you why you are in the grass. "Awe, damnit cap'n. We forgot the wheel brakes."

And wheel brakes can make the difference. ARFF doesn't always have the immediate chance to place chocks in. And the B-1 bomber emergency landing at PGUA in 2008 proves why its important. After landing with a #3 HYD system malfunction, the B-1 pulled off the runway and stopped. ARFF spotted hyd fluid leaking heavily from the jet. The parking brake was set and the jet emergency shut down as the fire trucks positioned at the 10 and 12 o'clock of the jet. 30 seconds later, the hyd system bled out, the brake released, and the jet rolled forward on the slight taxiway decline where it's nose went through the front windshield of a P-23 ARFF truck, and the left wing went just over and wedged a second P-23 ARFF truck underneath, stopping the B-1. Both trucks heavily damaged and out of service.

Plus, chocks during hot brakes cooling is a must too, especially with Airbus jets, where the flightcrew can see the wheel temps in the cockpit. That way there isn't another "....oh look! The wheel temps are good now, time to taxi away to the gate!" "Stop!!!, you got firefighters and cooling fans still underneath your damn jet!" That's why you'll also see an ARFF truck parked in front of the aircraft during these situations, so the crew can't go anywhere.

 

[typhoonpilot]

All this talk of ARFF trucks brings to mind an interesting tidbit. Captain Peter Burkhill of BA 38 fame and my old boss were friends. By boss tells the story well about some of the things Peter mentioned, not to the press mind you, during the crash and evacuation. One of which was when the ARFF truck pulled up to the front of the airplane he thought, "that is the biggest eff'ing fire truck I have ever seen".

The reason is where he was positioned (no undercarriage) low to the ground versus the normal perspective from a B777 cockpit.



TP

 

[MikeD]

All this talk of ARFF trucks brings to mind an interesting tidbit. Captain Peter Burkhill of BA 38 fame and my old boss were friends. By boss tells the story well about some of the things Peter mentioned, not to the press mind you, during the crash and evacuation. One of which was when the ARFF truck pulled up to the front of the airplane he thought, "that is the biggest eff'ing fire truck I have ever seen".

The reason is where he was positioned (no undercarriage) low to the ground versus the normal perspective from a B777 cockpit.

TP

Now that's funny! Could just imagine the realization of that detail, during the shock and surprise of the immediate post-accident time. The details that get noticed during those times, can be interesting.

 

[jtrain609]

Agree with this.



Evaluate the fire......how would you really know if it's truly out? Something ignited it.....something was the ignition source. You may have suppressed the fire, but what would the crew know of the ignition source? I certainly wouldn't take that plane to a gate, then end up with a fire at the gate.

I didn't write the book.

 

[jtrain609]

I wonder if the availability of slides has anything to do with the differences. You can evac an ERJ without probably hurting someone, but as soon as slides come out, people are gone get busted up.

Quite the opposite, I'd say. It's something like a 5' drop from the MCD on the ERJ to the ground, and it wouldn't be pretty trying to get grandma off that thing.

 

[killbilly]

It doesn't snow in Dubai



TP

Well, yeah, it doesn't snow OUTDOORS IN Dubai....

 

[scooter2525]

Slide down the cockpit window rope of the sim and down to the building floor included?

ill try that one next time!

 

[scooter2525]

It is downright impressive what good training does.

I remember my first real abort in the airplane. Captain called for it and without even thinking I keyed (and then dropped) the mic to advise ATC and when we came to a stop I was holding the immediate action items card ready to rock.

That said, reviewing that item after you have completed the memory items is kind of dumb. It's basically "idle, brakes, reverses." If you forgot one of those things, reviewing the checklist will only tell you why you are in the grass. "Awe, damnit cap'n. We forgot the wheel brakes."

I see what you did there....