"Those who can't, period"

Re: \"Those who can\'t, period\"

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Moisinee, WI

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Whoa, ppl that dont live there actually know of the place? haha

I'd agree with your point though. The place I got my PPL at was the stereotypical "ma 'n pop" joint, without the ma though. Did my training suffer because of this? No. The place had one chief flight instructor and one CFI, that was it. They both knew of my future plans and catered the teaching to it.
For my checkride I went to a nearby town that was the home of a local aviation legend. He owned his own A&P shop, left grease prints on my paper PPL cert and left me with some of his knowledge that he had acquired through the years of flying.
 
Re: \"Those who can\'t, period\"

Are you flying out of "Sea World" aka "Sea Way" (CWA)?
 
Re: \"Those who can\'t, period\"

So what is one of these faulty CFIs to do? The story would have had a happier ending if the author had told the prospective employee what she needed to do rather than flatly sending her on her way.

Mike
 
Re: \"Those who can\'t, period\"

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Are you flying out of "Sea World" aka "Sea Way" (CWA)?

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No in short. But yes in that we flew there cause it was only a short 10-15 minute flight and it was class D. The next nearest would have been Madison or Oshkosh. I flew out of ISW. I've flown commercially out of there a few times but I also am quite familiar with the area as my 'rents worked at the "stink mill."
 
Re: \"Those who can\'t, period\"

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So what is one of these faulty CFIs to do? The story would have had a happier ending if the author had told the prospective employee what she needed to do rather than flatly sending her on her way.

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Believe it or not, one can recieve training that is not for the express purpose of achieving a certificate. Maybe she could find a more accomplished flight instructor and pick his/her brain about the ins and outs of actually doing the job. I'm sure that if she introduced herself around, she could find some instructor who would let her backseat on some training flights to observe their methods. Maybe getting some additional, albeit not required training like a tailwheel endorsement or some aerobatic work would give her a little more useful background (also, the flight instructors one generally encounters during the aforementioned activities are generally very experienced instructors, so she may pick up some good instructing methods along the way).
 
Re: \"Those who can\'t, period\"

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Why the 60 degree bank? It doesn't make you decent any faster. The vertical lift that you lose by banking the plane is lost since you have to pull up to stay below Vne. Contrary to what most people believe, banking 60 degree or not, if you're pushing the nose down to get a Vne KIAS your descent rate will be the same.

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I've tried it both ways when descending after droping skydivers, and 60 deg bank cuts about 45 seconds the descent from 10,000.

The stopwatch dosen't lie.

Either way you have to apply serious foward pressure to maintain Vne (I never retrimed from best climb/aproach of 75kts).
 
Re: \"Those who can\'t, period\"

The bank angle also has to do with wing loading. When you pitch down sharply you are negativly putting G forces on the wings. In higher performance aircraft (jets mostly) it is possible to exceed the G limts placed on the airframe. This can lead to anything from metal stress to the airframe coming apart. To get around this problem an aircraft can be banked during the descent. When banking positive Gs are loaded. This load is then shed by the negative Gs loaded during the dive. They sort of equal out. At lower airspeeds and pitch rates (in a Cessna or Warrior) the load factor put on the aircraft is relativly small so not loading is needed to be done. But when you start going faster and with more mass it could be an issue that needs to be delt with.

Ethan

BTW: and this is from a CFI who went through one of "those" flight schools.
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Re: \"Those who can\'t, period\"

Not only that but it will also increase your descent rate, you add drag when the wings support more 'weight' than required (you're pulling Gs), so you descend faster. Whether it's smart to pull Gs when you're on fire, who knows
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As far as that article goes, I think the interviewee should take at least as much 'blame' as the school. She should be holding herself to a higher standard, I mean comon no matter what the school says if you're going to be training private pilots you should at least be able to pass a freakin private written. Common sense applies.
 
Re: \"Those who can\'t, period\"

Interesting
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, it was a jump pilot who explained to me it didn't make any difference.

I don't know if it's something people argue about or if he was plain wrong though. The theory seemed to hold water...but it could have a slow leak.
 
Re: \"Those who can\'t, period\"

Okay, Here's my problem with Mr. uber chief pilot from the article: he turned away an obviously motivated, intelligent, hard working individual. What he is saying is that he prefers technical factual knowledge, essentially a living, breathing, interactive book, to the motivation and tenacity that the applicant obviously displayed.

This girl worked her butt off to complete whatever program she finished. Also, she ponied up the cash for the program, which speaks volumes about her determination.

I say this as a part 61 guy who earned every one of his ratings by working any kind of job that I could find. I did retail, computer stuff, and even did some work installing carpet and ceramic tile. There were many days that I motivated myself with the knowledge that my take home pay equaled to .3 of an hour in a 172.

If the guy didn't like her academic knowledge, give her some suggestions of things to study and give her another chance. If he didn't like her teaching methods, (which the article never really stated that he evaluated), he should have explained the areas he would like to have seen improvement in. Really now, was he a perfect instructor when he first started?

It seems that the chief pilot might not really be looking for the right stuff.
 
Re: \"Those who can\'t, period\"

The gist of the problem with the applicant that I picked up from the article was not so much her lack of knowledge, but her attitude of excusing it as acceptable. To excuse not understanding carbs because she plans to fly jets is inexcusable. While she might some day plan to fly a jet, the job she's applying for involved flying single engine props. Such an attitude is reckless and irresponsible.

I hope to fly a jet some day, soon. But, right now I'm flyin a 150. So, I know everything there is to know about my little 150. We have that responsibility for every plane we fly.

I think it was much more the girl's attitude than her lack of essential knowledge.
 
Re: \"Those who can\'t, period\"

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Remember that guy across the airfield that we used when we were part-61? I finished FA314 and we didn't have self-examining authority for the old courses so this guys business got chopped big time right before I showed up for my checkride after we got self-examining authority.

There were two. One guy was really cool, the other one was the old crotchety guy with something to prove. I can't remember his name.

Lemme go check the logbook...

Nope, his name wasn't in my logbook. But man, what nostalgia! Greg Dunn, Ann Saeblok, Mike Lefevre, man, those were the days!

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Mike LeFevere! Whatever happened to him? He was one of the cool ones. I still remember when you were trying to get him setup since he didn't have a girlfriend.

The old guy across the field, I'llhave to check my logbook because I know his name is in there. Your busted multiengine check was my busted CFI check. I swear the pink slip was filled out prior to our flight brief.....

Was the younger guy (comparitively) Larry Tiffin? He had the FBO next to the tower that had that Arizona Pacific (Arizona Pathetic) airlines flying PA-31 Chieftains on a PHX-PRC-PHX run. It was to be Mesa's competition for their 208 Caravan they had on the same route, after Mesa took over for Golden Pacific's C-402s.
 
Re: \"Those who can\'t, period\"

Larry Tiffin runs the FBO down in Nogales. We take a C172 down there sometimes for some XC timebuilding stuff. I like going down there except for the left traffic for 21 puts you right into the side of a mountain.

Ethan
 
Re: \"Those who can\'t, period\"

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The gist of the problem with the applicant that I picked up from the article was not so much her lack of knowledge, but her attitude of excusing it as acceptable. To excuse not understanding carbs because she plans to fly jets is inexcusable.... the job she's applying for involved flying single engine props. Such an attitude is reckless and irresponsible. I think it was much more the girl's attitude than her lack of essential knowledge.

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I was about to post the same thing! But they are equally to blame. Were there RJs on the flight school ramp? No. Did she expect there to be??? Common. There are too many people who want a shortcut and are willing to pay big money for it, then they have this sense of entitlement. The article said that "Uber Chief pilot" had been interviewing and hiring CFIs for 25 years, so I am sure they knew a bit about what attitudes & qualities they are looking for in their applicants. Seems to be she needed to have that experience...

Any idea what school she went too??


That was a GREAT article by the way...
 
Re: \"Those who can\'t, period\"

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Okay, Here's my problem with Mr. uber chief pilot from the article: he turned away an obviously motivated, intelligent, hard working individual. What he is saying is that he prefers technical factual knowledge, essentially a living, breathing, interactive book, to the motivation and tenacity that the applicant obviously displayed......



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First of all: It's obvious your reading comprehension needs serious work:

<font color="blue">Arlynn McMahon is chief instructor for Aero-Tech, Inc., a busy flight school with facilities in both Lexington and Louisville, Kentucky. She <font color="red"> been interviewing, hiring, and mentoring CFIs for 25 years </font> has . She welcomes feedback at arlynn@aerotech.net. /&gt;
</font>

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If the guy didn't like her academic knowledge, give her some suggestions of things to study and give her another chance. If he didn't like her teaching methods, (which the article never really stated that he evaluated), he should have explained the areas he would like to have seen improvement in. Really now, was he a perfect instructor when he first started?


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On the contrary: SHE (Ms. "Uber Chief Pilot" with 25 YEARS of experience doing HER job) is not responsible for re-training the applicant in areas that SHOULD be remedial not only to CFI's, but to Student Pilots.

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It seems that the chief pilot might not really be looking for the right stuff.

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Wrong. It seems that the Chief Pilot is not only LOOKING for the "right stuff", hee DEMANDS it.

Re-read the ENTIRE post and don't be so quick to get your panties in a wad. If this young lady were so "motivated, intelligent &amp; hard-working" she would have come in prepared to interview for the position which was available.

It's like Doug has said over and over and over: (and forgive me if I slaughter it, Doug): "Lots of people want to be a pilot. Not many want to become a pilot."

Just MHO.
 
Re: \"Those who can\'t, period\"

"Before we conducted the interview, I had given her my flight school’s standard pre-employment knowledge exam, which is compiled directly from FAA Private Pilot questions. She failed it, scoring just 69 percent"

"Mr. uber chief pilot from the article: he turned away an obviously motivated, intelligent, hard working individual. What he is saying is that he prefers technical factual knowledge, essentially a living, breathing, interactive book, to the motivation and tenacity that the applicant obviously displayed."

I don't know. For a CFI to get a 69 on a private pilot written type test doesn't show me the individual is motivated, intelligent, and hard working. I don't think it's too much to ask that a CFI applicant should do much better than this.
 
Re: \"Those who can\'t, period\"

I agree with you on that. Repetetive training quizzing etc were a big part of my flight training at OSU. Any time in flight we were not directly working on a maneuver was spent quizzing. Especially on the days that bubba and his friends were spamming the airwaves.
 
Re: \"Those who can\'t, period\"

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Good article.......buta couple flight schools come to mind when I read this article.


Gee, wonder which ones those are
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What flight schools come to mind? Sounds like you know of several but I'm trying to think of just one "big name" school that trains that way in multi-engine aircraft. Seems like it would be extremely expensive.

I though most "big name" academies and colleges have a program where the students get hired on as instructors. This is purely speculation at this point but perhaps this applicant was not hired at the place she trained for the same reason she was not hired by the author. It is possible that this person is representing the lesser qualified of her fellow CFI's from training. Dunno, just surprised no one has mentioned that yet.
 
Re: \"Those who can\'t, period\"

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Okay, Here's my problem with Mr. uber chief pilot from the article: he turned away an obviously motivated, intelligent, hard working individual.

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One major thing is lacking there - Qualified. Obviously if the CFI applicant failed the Private written, they weren't qualified for that CFI slot. Heck, I'm motivated, hard working, and possibly intelligent.
 
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