This should light some people's fire.

ppragman said:
Not too hard if you don't crash. If you don't crash, the only suits you'll be explaining anything to are future hiring boards, and they probably won't ask. After that it depends on who you're interviewing for. Everything isn't the airlines, and the airlines know that. You don't take an airliner into a gravel bar. You can do that in a 206. Different strokes for different strokes. The military does all sorts of wild things with their machines, it doesn't mean their pilots are one trick ponies, same with bushrats, freightdogs, ag pilots, tow pilots, and many many others.
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esa17 said:
There is only one type of flying. We just need to wake up and realize that the edge of the envelope makes us dangerous...and foolish.

That may make us handsome but we'll never ever be employable.
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Really? Do you think I think this way? If so, you really don't really pay attention to me. It seems as if you guys are on YOUR high horses.

Sure, in the airline world it's different than flying in the Alaskan bush. You guys give off the air that the laws of physics and the ramifications of certain things don't apply in your world.

I know plenty about the Alaska *(asterisk), and I know exactly what it means. I have a friend that flipped a ski plane on a fairly routine operation (well, as routine as that stuff can get...he made it to and back from the glacier, this happened as he was turning off back at home). Guess what? The asterisk didn't apply in that case.

The NTSB investigates all manner of things. The "suits" I am describing are the NTSB investigators and lawyers, in case you missed it. They really don't care what type of flying you did. However, if you have the good fortune to be at your accident investigation (meaning you're around to talk about it), I doubt they give any discounts.
 
Generally these threads do get my goat a bit because as soon as they crop up you have the "that's sooo dangerous and stoopid" crowd chime in with their unwavering and uninformed opinions. The thing is I never have the ability to just let them be. Call it my high horse if you will, you're not wrong as it is one of my least favorite personality traits.

It's possible to do everything right and still find yourself in a hairy situation. It's also possible for that situation to lead to a NTSB report. But with a little outside the box thinking sometimes what scares the crap out of one guy can be totally normal (and safe) to another.

As diverse as the pilot group is here we sometimes have difficulty accepting that there is no one way to do things every single time. That's what chaps me.
 
NTSB accident investigators don't wear suits, at least none I have seen. Maybe they take them out for special occasions.
 
SpiraMirabilis said:
NTSB accident investigators don't wear suits, at least none I have seen. Maybe they take them out for special occasions.
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They only take them out when someone runs oversquare, uses the flaps as a collective, talks about GoJet, or crashes with a celebrity on board.
 
ppragman said:
They only take them out when someone runs oversquare, uses the flaps as a collective, talks about GoJet, or crashes with a celebrity on board.
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Never seen an NTSB member in a suit (well, that one time I cancelled IFR at the gate :bandit: ), but Flight Standards always seems to be suit and tie around these parts.
 
I don't think the guy's dangerous for doing this "new" technique. It certainly has a place and a time for use. At the same time, you won't see me doing this regularly simply because the POH suggests an alternate method.

I'd also avoid this technique on a checkride:

E. TASK: SHORT-FIELD TAKEOFF (CONFINED AREA—ASES) AND MAXIMUM PREFORMANCE CLIMB (ASEL and ASES)
REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-3; POH/AFM. Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to a short-field (confined area ASES) takeoff and maximum performance climb.
2. Positions the flight controls for the existing wind conditions, sets flaps as recommended.
3. Clears the area; taxies into takeoff position utilizing maximum available takeoff area and aligns the airplane on the runway center/takeoff path.
4. Selects an appropriate take-off path for the existing conditions (ASES).
5. Applies brakes (if appropriate) while advancing the throttle smoothly to takeoff power.
6. Establishes and maintains the most efficient planing/lift off attitude and corrects for porpoising and skipping (ASES).
7. Lifts off at the recommended airspeed, and accelerates to recommended obstacle clearance airspeed, or VX.
8. Establishes a pitch attitude that will maintain the recommended obstacle clearance airspeed, or VX,,+5/-0 knots, until the obstacle is cleared, or until the airplane is 50 feet (20 meters) above the surface.
9. After clearing the obstacle, establishes the pitch attitude for VY, accelerates to VY, and maintains VY, ±5 knots, during the climb.
10. Retracts the landing gear, if appropriate and flaps after clear of any obstacles or as recommended by manufacturer.
11. Maintains takeoff power and VY ±5 knots to a safe maneuvering altitude.
12. Maintains directional control and proper wind-drift correction throughout the takeoff and climb.
13. Completes appropriate checklist.


I presume they mean as recommended by the POH.
 
Chief are you reading up on your PTS tonight? Second time you've been able to quote them in 15 minutes and I KNOW nobody has them memorized...
 
Chief Captain said:
I don't think the guy's dangerous for doing this "new" technique. It certainly has a place and a time for use. At the same time, you won't see me doing this regularly simply because the POH suggests an alternate method.

I'd also avoid this technique on a checkride:

E. TASK: SHORT-FIELD TAKEOFF (CONFINED AREA—ASES) AND MAXIMUM PREFORMANCE CLIMB (ASEL and ASES)
REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-3; POH/AFM. Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to a short-field (confined area ASES) takeoff and maximum performance climb.
2. Positions the flight controls for the existing wind conditions, sets flaps as recommended.
3. Clears the area; taxies into takeoff position utilizing maximum available takeoff area and aligns the airplane on the runway center/takeoff path.
4. Selects an appropriate take-off path for the existing conditions (ASES).
5. Applies brakes (if appropriate) while advancing the throttle smoothly to takeoff power.
6. Establishes and maintains the most efficient planing/lift off attitude and corrects for porpoising and skipping (ASES).
7. Lifts off at the recommended airspeed, and accelerates to recommended obstacle clearance airspeed, or VX.
8. Establishes a pitch attitude that will maintain the recommended obstacle clearance airspeed, or VX,,+5/-0 knots, until the obstacle is cleared, or until the airplane is 50 feet (20 meters) above the surface.
9. After clearing the obstacle, establishes the pitch attitude for VY, accelerates to VY, and maintains VY, ±5 knots, during the climb.
10. Retracts the landing gear, if appropriate and flaps after clear of any obstacles or as recommended by manufacturer.
11. Maintains takeoff power and VY ±5 knots to a safe maneuvering altitude.
12. Maintains directional control and proper wind-drift correction throughout the takeoff and climb.
13. Completes appropriate checklist.


I presume they mean as recommended by the POH.
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Actually on my ASES commercial ride, it was expected to work the flaps in right below flying speed to "pop" me out of the water. But every examiner is different.
 
dhc2tacksby said:
Where in the POH does it tell you how to land?
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It doesn't (at least not in the regulatory sense beyond "The only authorized landing flap settings for normal landings are 20, 25, and 30" and that sort of thing.) Repeat after me, "Limitations and Weight and Balance data are the only regulatory parts of the POH/AFM". Everything else is a 'recommendation' for Part 91 operators. :deadhorse:

That said, when it comes to checkride time, you execute the maneuver in accordance with the PTS and the POH. (Another problem with pilot certification - checkride performance isn't necessarily the same as 'real world' performance.)
 
jtrain609 said:
Indeed, and by having the flaps down from the word go you're going to develop lift faster and thus, get the wheels out of the crap sooner.
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Or not, on some aircraft the flaps are basically drag devices, they may not necessarily produce additional lift. Depends on the aircraft whether it would help or not. Do what POH/AFM says - this isn't something you can make a generalization about.
 
I'd say poor technique. When you're at rotation speed on a short field, you don't need to be fidgeting with anything but the flight controls.

The airplane wasn't tested and the manual wasn't written to perform it that way, so why would you?

What if the lifting motion causes you to pull more flaps? Hows the short field performance with 25* set? Or worse, a bump the next instant has the flap lever slip out of your hand and you're at 0* flaps and no options? Like mentioned above, if you're flying a Cessna its REALLY easy to blow right by 10* on the flaps.

Set them before the roll and focus on flying the aircraft, not gaming another 10 feet out of it.
 
I want to respond but I'll just go to bed instead and let you live in your sheltered academy pilot world.
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Actually, I am a flight instructor that did all my training at a more traditional Part 61 flying school and have never stepped foot in an academy environment. To say that my comment implies that I live in a "sheltered academy pilot world" is an interesting one because it must also apply to William Kershner who, in Chapter 5 of the 7th edition of his book "The Advanced Pilot's Flight Manual," makes a very similar argument to mine. You seem to be someone who has a lot of experience in these types of situations where maximum short-field takeoff and climb performance is required. Are there situations where the application of flaps at rotation will tip the scales as to whether you get this performance or not?

I've never heard of a two person crew on a 747-200...
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Neither have I, I was thinking about the pilots and the flight engineer did not even cross my mind. Thanks for bringing that up, though, because that gives yet another set of hands to help out in the flap extension or retraction during this critical phase.
 
esa17 said:
Yes it works. Yes, it works well.

No, it shouldn't be used "every time", especially when you don't need it. If I were you I would keep that club in your bag for when you really need it and instead practice the technique outlined in the PTS.

Keep in mind I'm one of the dangerous types that raises the flaps in the flare when required.
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I had a friend show me the "raise flaps in the flare" technique. works well. But like you said before, it doesnt really need to be used "every time". In some situations it could help you out a lot! ;)
 
I feel SO novice but..., what does raising the flaps in the flare do? I touch down and raise them all the time. I've only ever grabbed the gear handle 0 times.
 
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