This should light some people's fire.

[esa17]

Yea, you might get off the ground 10' sooner. BFD.

Le sigh....It can be.

Also want to add, if you do this all the time in a piper, be carefull if you hop into an older j-bar mooney

I loved my D model with the Johnson bar but to retract on the TO roll thinking you're somehow in a manual flapped aircraft is laughable. Especially considering the two motions are so drastically different in both their physical location and direction of movement.

 

[ppragman]

Yes... just don't use it on a soggy wet field..

the performance gain for most planes is prob. Is slim to none though.

Works great on a soggy wet field. Though, you have to be damned careful. The performance gain is appreciable when you're operating in substantial snow or mud in light singles such as the 207 or a Cherokee 6. You have to feel it out on really soggy or muddy feels. You can also use a little aileron to work a tire out of the mud too. In the cherokee I didn't experience much mud, however I did get plenty of time playing with the thing on snow covered runways. It works, it'll pop you right out of the snow. Be advised, during anything like this, you'd better know your ship well and know not only how to fly it behind the power curve, but more importantly, when to fly it.

Indeed, and by having the flaps down from the word go you're going to develop lift faster and thus, get the wheels out of the crap sooner.

The drag is too much. It lengthens your takeoff roll substantially when compared to dropping them later. Especially if you intend on going to "full flaps" (not standard) to "pop" it out of the mud.

Wouldn't have thought it'd be that effective in the 207, what with the slow pace of extension of the Cessna electric flaps. Or are you talking about other flying?

You start them too full (just reach over and slap the handle down) when you start getting close to flying speed.

 

[KOAK Flyer]

Can't say that I am a fan of this technique. You are at one of the most critical phases of flight (takeoff) and, right at the moment where you should be completely focused on the flying (rotation), you instead reach down, take your eyes off the runway, and pull the flap lever? What happens when the flap lever is jammed? I will buy the 747 argument, but you are comparing a two-person crew (one person flies, one person operates the flaps) to a single-pilot operation (one pilot does everything). What's more, if you need THAT much of a performance increase (which, in reality, is probably not that much in a Piper Archer) to ensure a successful short-field takeoff and climb, clear of all obstacles, you have done a horrible job at preflight planning and are asking for an accident. Fun to try? I am sure it is. But not for actual short-field operations. Just my two cents!

 

[esa17]

Can't say that I am a fan of this technique. You are at one of the most critical phases of flight (takeoff) and, right at the moment where you should be completely focused on the flying (rotation), you instead reach down, take your eyes off the runway, and pull the flap lever? What happens when the flap lever is jammed? I will buy the 747 argument, but you are comparing a two-person crew (one person flies, one person operates the flaps) to a single-pilot operation (one pilot does everything). What's more, if you need THAT much of a performance increase (which, in reality, is probably not that much in a Piper Archer) to ensure a successful short-field takeoff and climb, clear of all obstacles, you have done a horrible job at preflight planning and are asking for an accident. Fun to try? I am sure it is. But not for actual short-field operations. Just my two cents!

:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

I want to respond but I'll just go to bed instead and let you live in your sheltered academy pilot world.

 

[Romulus]

Accelerate to just before the plane's short field liftoff speed (40 knots). Then pull (manual flaps) short field takeoff flaps down.

Yup. Sounds pretty standard. Works best with manual flaps where you can 'pop' the airplane off with quick full flaps then quickly get them back to take off setting.

 

[ppragman]

Yup. Sounds pretty standard. Works best with manual flaps where you can 'pop' the airplane off with quick full flaps then quickly get them back to take off setting.

Who are you driving for, are you out west?

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

Le sigh....It can be.


I loved my D model with the Johnson bar but to retract on the TO roll thinking you're somehow in a manual flapped aircraft is laughable. Especially considering the two motions are so drastically different in both their physical location and direction of movement.

when ninja hands strike, they know no limits ... Just saying dont grab for a handle and yank. Im not saying you would get a full swing, but if you were to unseat it... Ouch.

Prag, im not sure what your strips were like, when I wasfacing wet sod, or other such, I pretty much stuck with poh recommended, and was carefull not to stop, so never tried. I would be concerned with changing the center of lift suddenly, and placing more weight on the nose if it does not pop off.


Honestly though, the only time I everreally needed to drop the flaps last second, in hind sight,i really shouldn't have been flying. Every situation is different of course...but next time I'll fed ex a bag home first.

 

[ppragman]

when ninja hands strike, they know no limits ... Just saying dont grab for a handle and yank. Im not saying you would get a full swing, but if you were to unseat it... Ouch.

Prag, im not sure what your strips were like, when I wasfacing wet sod, or other such, I pretty much stuck with poh recommended, and was carefull not to stop, so never tried. I would be concerned with changing the center of lift suddenly, and placing more weight on the nose if it does not pop off.


Honestly though, the only time I everreally needed to drop the flaps last second, in hind sight,i really shouldn't have been flying. Every situation is different of course...but next time I'll fed ex a bag home first.

I got dual given from guys who'd been doing it for years. I started by doing what you did. Then the old timer said to me, "hey, would you rather be airborne in 700' or in 1200'?" I said, "well yeah, when I'm going out of a crapass runway on Kodiak Island." Then the guy said, "try doing this..."

If you have a loaded airplane, the change in center of lift requires some getting used to. And as much as I don't particularly care for Ninja hands either, it can take some fast action and "feel" to make it work right. Bottom line, don't just go out and start reefing on flap levers until you've flown with someone who can show you how to do it.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

I got dual given from guys who'd been doing it for years. I started by doing what you did. Then the old timer said to me, "hey, would you rather be airborne in 700' or in 1200'?" I said, "well yeah, when I'm going out of a crapass runway on Kodiak Island." Then the guy said, "try doing this..."

If you have a loaded airplane, the change in center of lift requires some getting used to. And as much as I don't particularly care for Ninja hands either, it can take some fast action and "feel" to make it work right. Bottom line, don't just go out and start reefing on flap levers until you've flown with someone who can show you how to do it.

If you really want to get that 1900 off fast, during the takeoff roll hitting the low pitch test is good for an instant 25 kts

Ninja hands was in reference to the mooney, ive seen lots of really stupid things courtesy of fast fingers. Personal favorite, fo doing the climb flow hit the standby pumps off, ptu off, and then finished the before landing flow... Yes he put the gear down, condition levers max (high prop rpm) bleeds back to min chimed the fa's, and then looked over and went- oh crap... after which he did the climb again.. And got to come up with a creative story for the pax.

 

[ppragman]

If you really want to get that 1900 off fast, during the takeoff roll hitting the low pitch test is good for an instant 25 kts

Ninja hands was in reference to the mooney, ive seen lots of really stupid things courtesy of fast fingers. Personal favorite, fo doing the climb flow hit the standby pumps off, ptu off, and then finished the before landing flow... Yes he put the gear down, condition levers mac (high prop rpm) bleeds back to min chimed the fa's, and then looked over and went- oh crap... Start which he did the climb again.. And got to come up with a creative story for the pax.

No kidding? That's dammed clever. It works? Not that you'd know anything about that right?

As for the Poor fo, yeah, I've seen and perhaps done stupid stuff like that too before I learned about ninja hands. The best one I ever saw as a captain turn a descent and approach check into a before takeoff check.

"CDI, to nav... trims one, two, three set and on...wait, we're flying, gawd I'm tired."

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

No kidding? That's dammed clever. It works? Not that you'd know anything about that right?

I can also tell you, if you hit that accidentally on final, when you wanted the boots one last time, its a supprise


I have a feeling its not nice to those props.. cutting from 1720 to the test value ( I forget... its been a while) nearly instantly has to be rough

 

[ppragman]

I can also tell you, if you hit that accidentally on final, when you wanted the boots one last time, its a supprise


I have a feeling its not nice to those props.. cutting from 1720 to the test value ( I forget... its been a while) nearly instantly has to be rough

It probably is pretty rough on them, still though, I bet its effective if you're thinking, "ohh XXXX, I'm gonna hit that tree there if I don't do something!"

 

[A150K]

You're going to grab the wrong handle and lower the gear instead of the flaps.

In a Cessna with electric flaps, yes. In a Piper with a johnson bar, I doubt it.

 

[Polar742]

when ninja hands strike, they know no limits ... Just saying dont grab for a handle and yank.

"Ninja Hands"....I love it!

I think all of us that have done simulator training have, at some point, either had ninja hands or had ninja hands try to unintentionally torpedo us, or both.

It happens on line also. The first line following ninja hands tends to be some interjection trying to get the unavoidable not to happen. Usually, said interjection is short and succinct, not having more than four letters followed by an exclamation point.

Oh well, whatever the technique, make sure you can explain it to a bunch of suits at a conference table.

Happy Flying!

 

[gne in prog]

In a Cessna with electric flaps, yes. In a Piper with a johnson bar, I doubt it.

i was just kidding. i'm hoping the gear would be down while you tool down the runway.

 

[jtrain609]

"Ninja Hands"....I love it!

I think all of us that have done simulator training have, at some point, either had ninja hands or had ninja hands try to unintentionally torpedo us, or both.

It happens on line also. The first line following ninja hands tends to be some interjection trying to get the unavoidable not to happen. Usually, said interjection is short and succinct, not having more than four letters followed by an exclamation point.

Oh well, whatever the technique, make sure you can explain it to a bunch of suits at a conference table.

Happy Flying!

WHAM! Somebody finally knocks it out of the park.

 

[ppragman]

Oh well, whatever the technique, make sure you can explain it to a bunch of suits at a conference table.

Happy Flying!

WHAM! Somebody finally knocks it out of the park.

Not too hard if you don't crash. If you don't crash, the only suits you'll be explaining anything to are future hiring boards, and they probably won't ask. After that it depends on who you're interviewing for. Everything isn't the airlines, and the airlines know that. You don't take an airliner into a gravel bar. You can do that in a 206. Different strokes for different strokes. The military does all sorts of wild things with their machines, it doesn't mean their pilots are one trick ponies, same with bushrats, freightdogs, ag pilots, tow pilots, and many many others.

 

[ChasenSFO]

I will buy the 747 argument, but you are comparing a two-person crew

I've never heard of a two person crew on a 747-200...

I'll try it sometime, see how it goes. I mean I already raised the flaps in the flare last week, the FSDO is probably gonna be knocking on my door any day now, who cares at this point?

 

[esa17]

Not too hard if you don't crash. If you don't crash, the only suits you'll be explaining anything to are future hiring boards, and they probably won't ask. After that it depends on who you're interviewing for. Everything isn't the airlines, and the airlines know that. You don't take an airliner into a gravel bar. You can do that in a 206. Different strokes for different strokes. The military does all sorts of wild things with their machines, it doesn't mean their pilots are one trick ponies, same with bushrats, freightdogs, ag pilots, tow pilots, and many many others.

There is only one type of flying. We just need to wake up and realize that the edge of the envelope makes us dangerous...and foolish.

That may make us handsome but we'll never ever be employable.

 

[Pilotforhire587]

My instructor showed me a new short field take-off technique!

Put full power and hold the brakes. Accelerate to just before the plane's short field liftoff speed (40 knots). Then pull (manual flaps) short field takeoff flaps down. This way you don't have the flap drag during acceleration. The plane just launches into the air; I'm going to keep using the technique from now forward.

This is a great takeoff edition to taking the flaps in during the flare!

This post isn't a joke either! It worked really well.






EDIT: This was a Piper Archer II with manual flaps.

Done as normal procedure in every light tail wheel I have ever flown for short fields!