This is how cabotage starts

German Air Berlin and Swedish Darwin both flying inter-Europe flights on behalf of Etihad, and even painting up the planes. If carriers like Skywest and Republic start flying JFK-STL/PIT/CVG/CLE/MDW/RDU to connect people onto Emirates, then we're gonna have some issues...

Woah, I had never thought of this. It kinda makes sense unless I'm missing something. I could see it playing out like this; so over the past decade the legacies have built up the regional's to pad/save/manipulate their bottom line, now they want to whipsaw them all into the ground. In order to save their business it would be interesting if the big regionals ended up doing feed for all the foreign carriers who would be happy to have them.
 
All I see here is 5th freedom rights being exercised.

Doesn't Cathay have US pilot bases?
On different but related note, doesn't Qantas operate LAX-HNL which is restricted to passengers and cargo going strictly to or from Australia?

Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
All I see here is 5th freedom rights being exercised.

Doesn't Cathay have US pilot bases?
On different but related note, doesn't Qantas operate LAX-HNL which is restricted to passengers and cargo going strictly to or from Australia?

Correct me if I'm wrong.

I believe what Qantas is doing is no different than British Airways PHX-JFK-Heathrow, and reverse, service. Consecutive cabotage not being exercised in both cases.
 
I would be more worried about US carriers lobbying Congress for "guest worker pilot visas," to you know, deal with the pilot shortage, and compete with foreign carriers. I would guess they would want something like an H1-B visa, which would essentially give them a 5 year indentured servant at the bottom of the pay scale.

+1 on this.... It's the most realistic and easiest to make happen. Sad to say its something the executive branch and politicians of both parties can cave in on with little public scrutiny.

Only issue i see is the reverse. Other countries are doing this to get qualified american pilots and are giving american pilots huge benefits which their hometown pilots are not getting (China, Cathay, Emirates, Etihad, etc).
 
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Is Emirates doing JFK to Milan cabotage? And can Alitalia operate JFK to Dubai?

Let's review what cabotage is. Cabotage is a foreign airline doing domestic routes in a country where they are not based. Emirates doing JFK-MXP is not cabotage but ALPA still doesn't like it. Qantas does SYD-LAX-JFK, but passengers are not allowed to board at LAX. Delta sells tickets between NRT and many countries in Asia too, as does United.

Cabotage is when Emirates starts selling tickets between JFK and LAX or MCO and BOS, and they fly those routes with their aircraft and their crew. They want this to happen, as I'm sure the other ME carriers do too.
 
You betcha they do. And they are already cooperating with one another in many ways.

Nov. 2013 (CNN) -- Perhaps nothing illustrates the ambitions of the well-established Gulf carriers -- Emirates, Etihad and Qatar -- and Turkish Airlines so much as the swift expansion of their route networks.

Turkish Airlines currently flies to about 190 destinations, and plans to add another 60 to its network in the next five years. Emirates, meanwhile, is expected to soon add to its already gargantuan fleet with a rumored record-breaking order for Boeing's 777X aircraft.

"These carriers have a good modern fleet and can fly long distances, and because of their geographical position, they can connect anywhere from their hub to almost anywhere else in the world, either non-stop, or one-stop," says John Strickland, an independent transport consultant.

When it comes to choosing what routes to launch, it happens that the region's major carriers have a carefully calculated strategy that can speak volumes about emerging markets.

Breaking up America?

Traditionally, the U.S. has been overlooked in favor of the European market by the Gulf carriers and Turkish. All that's set to change as Etihad, Emirates, Qatar and Turkish Airline have all either introduced direct routes to the U.S. this year, or else have some in the works for 2014.

"They're really starting to shake up the U.S. market for the first time," says Brendan Sobie, a spokesperson for the Center for Aviation.

Turkish Airlines flies to 39 destinations in Africa, including Somalia
Last month, Dubai launched a direct flight from New York City to Milan -- the first time in the airline's history a flight bypassed the Dubai hub (earlier this year, Delta and Alitalia unsuccessfully sued the Italian government to block the Emirates route).

In the next 15 years, the airline plans to double the number of U.S. destinations it flies into. Etihad will fly to four U.S. cities when it starts service to Los Angeles next year, while Qatar Airways will be up to six after it launches routes to Philadelphia and Miami.

The expansion has not gone unnoticed by the American aviation industry. The U.S. trade group Airlines for America and the U.S. pilot union, Air Line Pilots Association International, have been the most ardent opponents of the Gulf carriers encroachment into the U.S. market, often joining Delta and United in lobbying Congress for protectionist policies.

"It is interesting to see how the U.S. carriers and politicians are starting to respond," says Sobie.

Read more: Why the Dubai Airshow is a gamechanger

Tapping Africa

In just a couple of years, Turkish Airlines has become the largest international carrier in Africa, flying into 39 destinations. At first glance, some of the African cities in their network might seem random -- why fly to Somalia?

Their business plan underlines investment strategies for Turkey as a whole. According to the Center for Aviation many of the countries they serve, or are planning to serve, have a rapidly growing economy. In 2012, Rwanda's GDP grew by 8%, and Nigeria's by 6.6%. The continent also houses a wealth of natural resources.

"The most important geographic part of the world over the next 100 years will be Africa. In this respect, any destination (we fly to) in Africa will create more effective results than, say, a destination in Europe," says Ali Genc, Turkish Airlines' senior vice president of media relations.

Building BRICs

Turkish Airlines and the Gulf carriers have been increasingly developing their network across Brazil, Russia, India and China (BRIC) -- the nations widely viewed as the most promising developing markets in the 21st century. The importance of developing these routes is not simply to connect these emerging markets with the Middle East, but with each other.

"Carriers like Emirates, Etihad and Qatar can access emerging markets in Africa, Asia and Latin America and connect them in a way that is meaningful to travelers, and that European carriers can't hope to copy," says Strickland.

Budget carriers like Air Arabia and flydubai have become particularly attractive to cities and towns across Central and Eastern Europe.

"Regionally, we're seeing a lot of interest in the Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS)," says Sobie.

"Air Arabia and flydubai is a good fit for the medium-haul, thinner routes that are high-yielding and growing, but can't support the widebody aircraft of Emirates," he adds.
 
Long, but interesting.

Nov.2013 Fortune:

FORTUNE -- The record-smashing number of aircraft orders announced this week at the Dubai Air Show by the big three Persian Gulf airlines could spell big trouble for the U.S. airline industry. The 355 wide-body jets ordered by Emirates, Qatar Airways, and Etihad to the tune of some $160 billion, arms the Gulf carriers with a huge fleet of aircraft, crushing their U.S. and European counterparts in terms of efficiency, comfort, and luxury.

This order may just be the beginning. Boeing (BA) estimates that airlines in the Middle East will need 2,610 new aircraft over the next 20 years, worth an astounding $550 billion. While around a third of the new jets will be slated to replace aging aircraft, the rest will be used to expand the various carriers' reach across the world. How they choose to expand should be of grave concern to the U.S. airlines as they could see some very unwanted competition from the Gulf carriers on a number of international routes they thought they had all locked up.

Last month Emirates flight 205 pushed back from Milan's Malpensa airport for the last leg of its maiden voyage. But instead of making the seven-hour trek back to the airline's home base in Dubai, the shiny, virtually brand new, Boeing 777 aircraft touched down at New York's JFK International airport. No, there wasn't a grave navigational error, the flight had landed in New York on purpose.

A few hours later, the plane turned around and headed back to Milan with hundreds of Americans on board bound for Europe. Passengers in first class paid thousands of dollars to enjoy the serenity of Emirates' private mini-suites -- a luxury not offered by any other airline flying on that route. Meanwhile, passengers in coach enjoyed Emirates' signature service, comfortable seats, and delicious cuisine, all while paying half as much as they would have if they had flown one of the more established U.S. or European carriers.

U.S. and European airlines are not happy with Emirates' move on their territory. How they choose to address the situation could have wide-ranging repercussions for the global airline industry. In the last decade Emirates, along with Gulf rivals Qatar Airways and Etihad, have risen from seemingly out of nowhere to become some of the largest and most envied airlines in the world. In 2002, the three Gulf carriers made up just 2% of the international air market, as measured by available seat miles. By the end of 2012, though, that number had jumped to 11% and is expected to rise further in the years to come. In contrast, U.S. airlines during the same time have gone from controlling 14% of the international market to just 11%.

But while the U.S. airlines have lost market share to the Gulf airlines, they have also managed to solidify their control over key airline markets, including the all-important trans-Atlantic route linking the U.S. and Europe. This was possible thanks to the competition-killing mergers and acquisitions that have left the U.S. with only three major international air carriers: United Airlines (UAL), Delta Air Lines (DAL), and American Airlines. Each heads one of the three worldwide frequent flyer alliances -- United with Star Alliance; Delta with SkyTeam, and American with One World. Through these alliances, the airlines successfully attained "antitrust immunity" with their main European partners, allowing them to legally collude to protect market share and profits.

After years of carefully crafting agreements, the U.S. carriers have started to see results from the alliances and mergers. United reported a 9% jump in unit revenue in the third quarter of the year on its trans-Atlantic flights, compared with the same time last year, while increasing capacity by just 2%. American fared better, reporting a 12% growth in unit revenue over the Atlantic after actually decreasing capacity by 2%. Meanwhile, Delta reported an amazing 20% increase in unit revenue on the all-important New York to London route, helping the airline post record profits for the quarter.

Over in Europe, the trans-Atlantic routes have helped protect the profits of the big airlines -- Lufthansa (Star), Air France/KLM (SkyTeam), and British Airways/Iberia (One World) -- which have come under heavy assault from the Gulf Carriers on connecting routes to Africa, the Middle East, Asia, and Australia. Emirates has managed to steal a great deal of market share on these routes by allowing passengers to skip Europe and connect through their massive hub airports in the Persian Gulf.

Emirates has successfully assaulted the European carriers at both the top and bottom ends of the market. Customers in Emirates' economy class usually pay less compared with competing flights, while still receiving a superior level of service. Upper class customers, meanwhile, usually pay more, but receive greater exclusivity and comfort compared to upper class cabins on European airlines, especially in First Class, where Emirates' customers have access to perks like onboard showers, personal suites, and chauffeured car services.

One of the key drivers that allows the Gulf carriers to bust up their competition is their virtually brand new fleet of widebody (twin aisle) jets. These new jets are cheaper to operate, as they require less maintenance and consume less fuel compared with those older jets flown by the U.S. and European airlines. Their massive size allows them to achieve scale on routes by packing in the passengers, but at the same time allows them to offer greater comfort with wider seats and more generous legroom.

Emirates has a fleet of 196 passenger planes, which is made up solely of widebody aircraft, like Boeing's 777 or Airbus' gigantic A380. At current count, Emirates already has more widebody aircraft in service than any of the major U.S. carriers, adding an average of two new aircraft every month. Its current order book after this weekend now comprises of some 385 aircraft, which is more than the current widebody fleet of all U.S. airlines combined. Meanwhile, Qatar Airways currently operates 77 widebody aircraft with another 115 on order. Etihad, which just celebrated its 10th anniversary, has a more modest fleet of 54 widebody aircraft, but has a whopping 171 on order.

Now, these aircraft will take years to manufacture, with many slated to replace planes that are currently in service. But orders this large clearly signal expansion -- massive expansion. Shaikh Ahmad Bin Saeed Al Maktoum, chief executive of Emirates, told reporters this week that he expects the airline will operate a fleet of between 350 to 450 widebody jets by 2025, which averages out to around double that of Emirates' current fleet.

So what is Emirates going to do with all that new capacity? That's the question on the minds of airline chief executives around the globe. Emirates already flies to 137 destinations in 77 countries, so it has a lot of the world covered already. But not everyone will welcome further expansion. For example, the Chinese government restricts the number of foreign flights allowed to land in its territory, limiting Emirates to just a handful of flights. The Chinese aren't alone -- even nations as liberal as Canada have thrown up restrictions of their own, limiting Emirates to only three flights a week.

The one place Emirates could expand where there would be limited restrictions and sufficient international demand is in the U.S. The current "Open Skies" agreement between the U.S. and the United Arab Emirates allows for an unlimited number of flights to enter and exit the U.S. from Gulf carriers, with no restrictions as to the destination of the outbound aircraft, as long as it ends up back in its home country. Cabotage rules still apply, though, meaning that Emirates, as well as all other foreign air carriers, are barred from operating point-to-point domestic travel within the U.S. But this shouldn't be of much concern to Emirates given its recently inked partnerships with U.S. domestic carriers JetBlue (JBLU) and Alaska Air (ALK). The agreements allow Emirates to tap their domestic feed to potentially create hubs in New York, Boston, Seattle, and Orlando. Its partnership with EasyJet in Europe serves a similar function on the continent.

Emirates has said it wants to double the number of cities it flies to in the U.S. from seven to 15 in the next few years. What it hasn't said is how it will connect those cities to its now vast network. Will it be through Dubai or will it be through another foreign city? Theoretically, Emirates could have aircraft operating from Dubai to Europe continue on to points in the U.S. Since there are no restrictions, Emirates could simply extend its network over the Atlantic, capturing the oversized profits currently being enjoyed by the U.S. and European airlines. Emirates could augment the routes with additional aircraft to maintain frequency on the expanded routes.

Such a scenario would undoubtedly inflict major damage to the bottom lines of U.S. airlines. As expected, the airlines have responded to Emirates' incursion over the Atlantic with rock bottom prices on the New York to Milan route. That's great news for passengers traveling between the two cities as fares have been sliced nearly in half, but it's bad news for the airlines, which almost surely are operating the route at a loss. Eventually one side will blink and either raise fares or withdraw from the market. Emirates has a huge war chest, but all this expansion has decreased its profit margins. It is unclear how long it can continue to hang in and fight. It may be wise to withdraw and reenter the market when it can launch service to a number of locations all at once.

But instead of fighting Emirates, the big U.S. airlines could try to co-op the airline by enticing it to join one of the alliances. One World nabbed Qatar Airways last year, effectively shutting down a threat from Doha. As long as Emirates continues to operate outside the alliance structure, it will be the U.S. airline's biggest threat. For now, Emirates says it wants to remain solo, preferring to enter into bilateral agreements that appear to offer Emirates access to domestic feeders. It seems disinterested in colluding -- just conquering. The battle for skies, it seems, as just only begun.
 
Another little chink
United Arab Emirates paying 85% of US immigration officials' salary

Jan 27, 2014
Flying from Abu Dhabi to the United States on Etihad Airlines is now like a domestic flight from New York to Los Angeles. Connecting immediately to Etihad's new US airline partner JetBlue can be fast, no additional customs or immigration clearing will delay for this transfer.

Clearing US customs and immigration in the United Arab Emirates is not a hoax, but reality.

The government of the United Arab Emirates paying 85% of the bill, so the US government can do their job in processing travelers in Abu Dhabi instead of New York or other US gateways seems to be a bargain, but some US congressman thinks it's an embarrassment.
It means 85% of the salaries of US officials protecting the US homeland in Abu Dhabi are actually paid by the UAE government.

To make it even better, this is a clear advantage for anyone to fly on Etihad compared to flying on a US carrier- thanks to the joint effort of the US and UAE governments.

The project has drawn criticism from U.S. pilots and members of Congress.

In exchange, travelers may be lured to fly from Abu Dhabi direct to the United States on Etihad Airways, the UAE's national carrier and sole airline flying non-stop between the two locations. The facility does not process cargo.

The U.S. has preclearance passenger facilities throughout Canada, in four Caribbean locations and Ireland. The new facility in Abu Dhabi, which allows passengers to complete U.S. customs and immigration before boarding flights to the United States, is the Middle East's first. It is also the first preinspection arrangement to be enacted with another country since the 1980s.


U.S. Embassy spokesman Jeffrey Ladenson told The Associated Press that the first flight using the U.S. Customs and Border Protection preclearance inspection took off Friday from UAE's capital city of Abu Dhabi for Washington-Dulles airport.

Etihad plans additional flights to the U.S. will be processed via the facility in the coming days. The state-backed airline currently operates non-stop daily flights from Abu Dhabi to New York, Washington D.C. and Chicago. It plans more routes this year to Los Angeles and Dallas.


The airline has codeshare partnerships with JetBlue Airways and American Airlines that allow passengers to fly on routes operated by both carriers on a single ticket.

The Air Line Pilots Association said on its website that it opposes the Abu Dhabi facility because only Etihad benefits from the agreement. Long customs lines at airports are already hurting U.S. airlines and passengers from Asia or Europe could opt to fly Etihad over U.S. carriers to avoid those lines, it added.


The Southwest Airlines Pilots' Association similarly raised questions about why Abu Dhabi airport was chosen, saying Friday that the traffic rate there for U.S.-bound passengers is less than a mere 200 per day on average, "making this a poor investment of U.S. taxpayers' increasingly limited resources."

One of the world's busiest airports, and the Middle East's largest, is in nearby Dubai, which does not have a U.S. Customs preclearance facility.


AP reports: "We are more than willing to compete against any airline in the world, including state-sponsored Middle East entities. However, Middle East entities that already enjoy generous state sponsorship should not receive additional government support from the U.S. taxpayer," Southwest Airlines Pilots' Association President Capt. Mark Richardson said in a statement.

In April, 14 members of Congress signed a letter to the Department of Homeland Security saying that the preclearance facility in Abu Dhabi "sets the dangerous precedent" of deploying customs resources based on third-party financing and "not national security, common sense or the needs of traveling taxpayers." In November, a bill was introduced in Congress to block the UAE facility, saying it "threatens American jobs" by encouraging travelers to use foreign airlines instead of U.S. carriers.
 
My biggest concern isn't Emirates flying JFK-MXP and Norwegian flying several European routes from New York and Florida, its more this:

German Air Berlin and Swedish Darwin both flying inter-Europe flights on behalf of Etihad, and even painting up the planes. If carriers like Skywest and Republic start flying JFK-STL/PIT/CVG/CLE/MDW/RDU to connect people onto Emirates, then we're gonna have some issues...

What you are referring to above is a code share. US Airlines do code shares with other domestic and foreign airlines so this is not a new concept.

However the fact remains that If Republic or Skywest could gain approval to do a code share with Emirates, then where are the pilots going to come from to fly those code share planes?

Republic has already announced they are short pilots and can't hire enough to staff the planes that they already have.

Skywest has not made an announcement like this, but their ExpressJet division has. You would figure that if Skywest had a bunch of extra pilots that they would somehow figure out a way to get them over to ExpressJet where there appears to be a shortage.

The pilot shortage hit the rest of the world before it hit in the US. The rest of the world is having the same problems recruiting and keeping pilots. That's why they are willing to pay US pilots $18,000 a month to fly ERJ's in China.

Joe
 
What you are referring to above is a code share. US Airlines do code shares with other domestic and foreign airlines so this is not a new concept.
Yes, but there are 2 types(surely many more, but for demonstrative purposes) of code-shares. One way is the "standard" codeshare where airlines in the same alliance or with another standing agreement can sell a limited number of tickets on select flights. An example would be United's code share with Hawaiian Airlines. It only exists on certain routes(inter-island flying from between HNL, ITO, OGG, and KOA), and even then on certain flights, and United only has the authority to book a percentage of the seats. The other way of "codesharing", is what Skywest and AirTran did out of MKE. AirTran couldn't have any regional flying, so they "codeshared" with Skywest out of MKE. Skywest airplanes in a special house Skywest livery were doing the flights in "cooperation with AirTran"...but the catch was AirTran sold 100% of the seats and dictated the schedules and reservations of said flights. Essentially, it was the same as Skywest flying for United, Delta, Alaska, or US Airways. Just in a different and sneaky manner. This is my fear. A regional painting planes to say Emirates, Etihad, or Qatar while doing an AirTran/Skywest type codeshare. I'm not sure how hard it would be to get around this, but if they did it in Europe, I can imagine it could happen here.

As far as the pilot staffing, that's an issue right now. But a few years from now after some "right sizing" and whatever happens with the AA/US regionals, I doubt the airlines will be unable to fill seats if one of the big ME3 wanted to buy them jets.
 
Ultimately, Norwegian wants to create NYC base and another one in MCO in order to fly point-to-point in the US, using Thai cockpit and cabin crew members, all under the Irish flag (famous for anti-labor practices).


Doug:

If you are going to argue against this at least get some facts straight.

Norwegian has talked about hiring pilots to be based in the USA. That is probably unrealistic since they require an EASA license and there are not many people with the right to live/work in the USA who have an EASA license. At no point was it stated anywhere that this was to fly point to point in the USA.

Norwegian cockpit crew are not Thai, and even if there were, that is a moot point and somewhat racist to infer that Thai crew are somehow inferior to U.S. or European crew. Thai Airways is actually a pretty good job and the Thai pilots I have met are good people. Norwegian cockpit crew are mostly European with EASA licences. I have met French, English, Norwegian, Swedish, and Finnish pilots who work there.

Fact is that the European Union ( EU ) rules that have made borders somewhat transparent these days are allowing Norwegian to structure the way the have.

One thing that ALPA and the airlines in the USA are not good at is adapting. ALPA failed to adapt to the RJ in a realistic manner and we all know how that has turned out. With the advent of aircraft like the 787 long haul low cost may actually become viable. That remains to be seen, but if it does I agree it is a threat to U.S. carriers and U.S. airline pilots if their respective airlines fail to adapt and compete accordingly.



Typhoonpilot
 
@typhoonpilot, Norweigan Air International (NAI) is different than Norwegian Air Shuttle. NAI plans on using a Thai staffing agency for the pilots who are based in Singapore. Even if they use French, Swedish or Finnish pilots for the NAI routes, it is a 'flag of convience' business model that has decimated good paying jobs here in the United States.

Also...

http://www.newsinenglish.no/2014/01/10/air-authorities-slam-norwegian/

http://www.newsinenglish.no/2013/10/30/norwegian-air-faces-boycott/
 
@typhoonpilot, Norweigan Air International (NAI) is different than Norwegian Air Shuttle. NAI plans on using a Thai staffing agency for the pilots who are based in Singapore. Even if they use French, Swedish or Finnish pilots for the NAI routes, it is a 'flag of convience' business model that has decimated good paying jobs here in the United States.

Also...

http://www.newsinenglish.no/2014/01/10/air-authorities-slam-norwegian/

http://www.newsinenglish.no/2013/10/30/norwegian-air-faces-boycott/

Sorry Seggy, wrong. I just did a 787 type rating in MIA and the pilots I was hanging out with who were doing theirs for Norwegian are the ones I am speaking of. Norwegian Long Haul or Norwegian Air International as they are known do not have Thai pilots that I know of. They do have Thai cabin crew. The contract is through a Singaporean agency, not Thai. They are BKK based, but are looking at Gatwick and Barcelona bases as well.


......and it's a foreign company. Again, look at the pay rates I posted. South American airlines are flying to the States paying flight deck crew much less and have been doing it for decades. Why is Norwegian all of a sudden in the firing line?



TP
 
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In my experience, Thai students have been pretty good sticks, and not quite as submissive as Japanese or Koreans (Better decision making). Engrish has been racking, however.
 
Norwegian Long Haul or Norwegian Air International as they are known do not have Thai pilots that I know of. The contract is through a Singaporean agency, not Thai.

TP,

The only ads I've seen for this job are through Rishworth ( a NZ-based agency, IIRC ?) and pretty clearly specify JAA license and EU passport, as you mentioned. Is there another agency involved in Singapore or is it a Rishworth branch in Singapore to which you refer ?

http://www.latestpilotjobs.com/jobs/view/id/2480.html

http://www.latestpilotjobs.com/jobs/view/id/2479.html

http://www.latestpilotjobs.com/jobs/view/id/2478.html

Can't tell the players without a program. :biggrin:
 
Once again @typhoonpilot, it is the 'flag of convenience' business model.

They are shopping around countries to find the one who will give them the 'easiest' time in terms of their operating certificate (they aren't even going to be flying in Ireland, HOW can that country provide oversight???), cheap labor, and a 'testing the waters approach' that is extremely dangerous to our profession. Look at the cruise ship industry and the safety issues they have been experiencing over the last few years. They operate under flags of convenience due to lax regulatory standards. That is exactly what Norwegian is trying to do here.
 
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