This is how cabotage starts

derg

Apparently a "terse" writer
Staff member
The voting public will hear
  • Ultra-cheap
  • Anti-union
  • European
  • Those dastardly US carriers hate the idea so it must be good
from:
http://business.time.com/2014/02/13...union-upstart-airline-could-transform-flying/

An Ultra-Cheap, Anti-Union Upstart Airline Could Transform Flying
By Brad Tuttle @bradrtuttle


Read more: An Ultra-Cheap, Anti-Union Upstart Airline Could Transform Flying | TIME.com http://business.time.com/2014/02/13...airline-could-transform-flying/#ixzz2tFvHSdwJ

Travelers have long desired low-cost flights connecting Europe and the U.S. One emerging European carrier is making this dream a reality—and a range of travel industry forces don’t like it one bit.

Norwegian Air Shuttle, the third-largest budget airline in Europe, has been ruffling the travel industry’s feathers for months with the rollout of new international routes with exceptionally cheap fares: Think under $500 for round trips to Europe from the U.S., with all mandatory taxes and fees included. For travelers who have come to expect to pay several hundred dollars merely for the “taxes and fees” portion of their transatlantic flight tabs, these flights look like phenomenal bargains.

Norwegian’s larger competitors in the sky tend to dismiss the upstart carrier as an insignificant gimmick that’s bound to fail. Other forces in the industry have been openly critical of Norwegian’s practices, accusing the airline of everything from turning its back on its home country, to risking passenger safety, to scheming ways to avoid union rules of various countries, all in the name of lowering costs.

Clearly, Norwegian Air CEO Bjorn Kjos isn’t upset about people being upset. Responding to the idea that Norwegians don’t like that the company is no longer really a Norwegian carrier, and that many are angered that the company has hired Thai pilots and American flight attendants at a fraction of what it would cost to pay union-member Norwegians, Kjos said bluntly (via The Guardian), “We don’t give a s*** about that.”

(MORE: Airline Travelers, Your Future Will Look a Lot Like … Cleveland)

“We go where the passengers go,” Kjos continued. “Norway is just too small to survive.”

Norwegian Air has been making headlines not only because it is aggressively pushing into the North American market, but because it has established its headquarters, curiously, in Ireland. As the New York Times and others reported, Norwegian Air Shuttle received an official operating license in Ireland this week, bringing with it the possibility of a much larger expansion into the transatlantic flight market.

What makes the move curious isn’t simply that an airline with “Norwegian” in the name is basing its long-haul services (to North America and Asia) in Ireland; it’s that the airline doesn’t actually operate any flights out of Ireland. “Today’s announcement that Ireland has granted an air operator’s certificate to Norwegian Air International raises the key air safety question of how the Irish government will exercise its oversight responsibility when NAI never actually operates to or through Ireland,” said Capt. Lee Moak, president of the U.S.-based Air Line Pilots Association, in a press release bashing the decision because it “threatens U.S. airline jobs” and represents “an unfair advantage over U.S. airlines in winning passengers’ business by dodging its national laws.”

Norwegian Air already has announced or already flies between Scandinavian cities such as Bergen, Oslo, Stockholm, and Copenhagen to New York, Fort Lauderdale, Los Angeles, and Oakland. This summer, Norwegian will add all-important nonstops to London (Gatwick) from New York, Los Angeles, and Fort Lauderdale.

In a recent round of flight searches, a round trip between New York and London next October came to a total of $636 on Norwegian (including $286 in taxes and fuel surcharges). On British Airways, the cheapest New York-London round trip fare for the same exact departure days was $1,093 (including a whopping $702 credited to “taxes, fees, and carrier charges”). Granted, Norwegian charges extra for checked luggage, meals, and other services and amenities provided at no extra fee by larger carriers such as BA. Even so, given the huge difference in the initial fare, a certain kind of traveler will see Norwegian as the far better value.

(MORE: Cheap Flights to Europe Take Off: Flights from Under $500 Round Trip, Fees Included)

Can Norwegian actually run a successful business given its low fares and controversial practices? If it was easy to turn a profit with low-cost long-haul flights, surely many airlines would have already jumped into the fray. Over the years, a few carriers have dipped their toes into the market and failed. Some experts feel that Norwegian could prove to be a game-changer, however, and that the airline could truly make the discount transatlantic flight concept work for, well, the long haul.

“There have been several failures so far,” air transport consultant John Strickland told The Guardian. “I’d say Norwegian has a better chance than most – it has learned the ropes of low-cost efficiencies. But it has got to go through all sort of hoops to make it work now.”



Read more: An Ultra-Cheap, Anti-Union Upstart Airline Could Transform Flying | TIME.com http://business.time.com/2014/02/13...airline-could-transform-flying/#ixzz2tFvCT5np
 
Not sure how an international carrier flying an international route equates to cabotage, but I am an idiot.

Also, this doesn't help:

Norwegian Air, Europe’s third-largest low-cost airline by passengers carried, swung to a net loss of 196.8 million Norwegian kroner, or $32.2 million, in the three months that ended Dec. 31, from a net profit of 23.6 million kroner the same period last year. For the full year, net profit fell to nearly 319 million kroner, from 457 million in 2012.

Losing 10 million a month, you're doing it wrong.
 
Not sure how an international carrier flying an international route equates to cabotage, but I am an idiot.

Ultimately, Norwegian wants to create NYC base and another one in MCO in order to fly point-to-point in the US, using Thai cockpit and cabin crew members, all under the Irish flag (famous for anti-labor practices).
 
Ultimately, Norwegian wants to create NYC base and another one in MCO in order to fly point-to-point in the US, using Thai cockpit and cabin crew members, all under the Irish flag (famous for anti-labor practices).

You'll have to explain it to me like I am 5 years old, because I am not putting it together. Doesn't Emirates operate out of DFW? I don't see how this is any different. I am sure Emirates would love to do point to point flying in the United States, but it ain't going to happen anytime soon. What makes you think the cabotage rules are eroding?
 
You'll have to explain it to me like I am 5 years old, because I am not putting it together. Doesn't Emirates operate out of DFW? I don't see how this is any different. I am sure Emirates would love to do point to point flying in the United States, but it ain't going to happen anytime soon. What makes you think the cabotage rules are eroding?

Emirates bases all its crews out of DXB with no desire to create a crew base in the states.
 
International flying to and from the US is not cabotage. Many foreign carriers fly to and from the US, each and every day to and from cities around the world. They depart from the international terminal at the airports they service. That is the purpose of the international terminals.

Cabotage is point to point service within the US by a foreign carrier. It's not allowed and it's not gonna happen for a number of reasons.

There have been many start up international carriers flying to and from the US over the years. I can't remember them all, but I can remember Laker, Skybus, Tower Air and Virgin Atlantic. All of them offered lower fares than the existing carriers did. After all that is the only way you can start up one of these discount type airlines. Most failed.

So this Norwegian Air Shuttle is nothing new. They might make it. They might not make it. Time will tell. History tells us they have a better chance of failure than of success.

Virgin Atlantic was the only lower cost carrier that I can remember that did survive.

Later they attempted to fly point to point in the US and that was stopped cold before it ever got off of the ground because cabotage is not allowed here. The Virgin brand was then rebooted in the US with US ownership under the Virgin America brand. Virgin America is a US owned and managed airline. It does not have the same ownership as Virgin Atlantic.

I think you all are worried about nothing.

Joe
 
International flying to and from the US is not cabotage. Many foreign carriers fly to and from the US, each and every day to and from cities around the world. They depart from the international terminal at the airports they service. That is the purpose of the international terminals.

Cabotage is point to point service within the US by a foreign carrier. It's not allowed and it's not gonna happen for a number of reasons.

There have been many start up international carriers flying to and from the US over the years. I can't remember them all, but I can remember Laker, Skybus, Tower Air and Virgin Atlantic. All of them offered lower fares than the existing carriers did. After all that is the only way you can start up one of these discount type airlines. Most failed.

So this Norwegian Air Shuttle is nothing new. They might make it. They might not make it. Time will tell. History tells us they have a better chance of failure than of success.

Virgin Atlantic was the only lower cost carrier that I can remember that did survive.

Later they attempted to fly point to point in the US and that was stopped cold before it ever got off of the ground because cabotage is not allowed here. The Virgin brand was then rebooted in the US with US ownership under the Virgin America brand. Virgin America is a US owned and managed airline. It does not have the same ownership as Virgin Atlantic.

I think you all are worried about nothing.

Joe

Again, I would say, never say never in this industry. We may not see so-called "stand alone" cabotage soon, where a foreign carrier flies CONUS point to point carrying pax from A to B as a route segment.

However I could see rules eased enough to where so-called "consecutive" cabotage happens; like having British Airways on it's PHX to Heathrow route where it stops in JFK; find them hauling CONUS pax from JFK to PHX, or PHX to JFK, who aren't coming/going to Heathrow. That I can easily see coming to pass, because it doesn't take much to be able to do that cost-wise. It's not specific CONUS point-to-point like standalone cabotage is, but it's cabotage nonetheless, and it can open the door to potential standalone.

Time will tell.
 
Again, I would say, never say never in this industry. We may not see so-called "stand alone" cabotage soon, where a foreign carrier flies CONUS point to point carrying pax from A to B as a route segment.

However I could see rules eased enough to where so-called "consecutive" cabotage happens; like having British Airways on it's PHX to Heathrow route where it stops in JFK; find them hauling CONUS pax from JFK to PHX, or PHX to JFK, who aren't coming/going to Heathrow. That I can easily see coming to pass, because it doesn't take much to be able to do that cost-wise. It's not specific CONUS point-to-point like standalone cabotage is, but it's cabotage nonetheless, and it can open the door to potential standalone.

Time will tell.

Mike all of this has been tried many times before. It is not allowed. It's not gonna happen in the US.

Joe
 
My biggest concern isn't Emirates flying JFK-MXP and Norwegian flying several European routes from New York and Florida, its more this:
Air-Berlin-Etihad-livery-780.jpg


And this:

BZRqtGyCIAAyzyl.jpg


German Air Berlin and Swedish Darwin both flying inter-Europe flights on behalf of Etihad, and even painting up the planes. If carriers like Skywest and Republic start flying JFK-STL/PIT/CVG/CLE/MDW/RDU to connect people onto Emirates, then we're gonna have some issues...
 
Mike all of this has been tried many times before. It is not allowed. It's not gonna happen in the US.

Joe

I agree. Of course it's not allowed, and yes it has been tried before. My angle is that foreign interests...in a bid to convince lawmakers that they're "helping" us....will eventually erode and chip away at the laws that have been preventing cabotage up until now. They've been trying hard so far, and I just see our Congress....in their infinite wisdom......thinking this kind of "insourcing" will help counter all the "outsourcing" of work that has been happening thus far. I don't see Congress being smart enough to know how bad this could be, and in some ways I could see them getting enough pocket lining to relax cabotage laws.....even if cabotage itself isn't financially feasible right now to be fully successful.
 
What makes you think the cabotage rules are eroding?

Because Moak comes up behind them and yells "boogidy, boogidy, boogidy!" This is a non-issue. Bankruptcy law is still a mess, the FFD side of the business is a mess, the ACMI side of the business is a mess, the legacy carriers still haven't achieved pre-9/11 wages again, and we're wasting time talking about the Boogeyman. Our priorities right now suck.
 
Laker tried to start cheap transatlantic service, then people express, highland express, ect - they all went bust. The money on transatlantic are first class not economy.
 
Laker tried to start cheap transatlantic service, then people express, highland express, ect - they all went bust. The money on transatlantic are first class not economy.
Eh, didn't work for EOS either. Although they may have had more problems than biz model I don't know about.
 
The voting public will hear
  • Ultra-cheap
  • Anti-union
  • European
  • Those dastardly US carriers hate the idea so it must be good

Meh, NYC-LHR/LGW is one of the most fiercely competitive routes in the world. Good luck, but the incumbent players have all shown willingness to hemorrhage money for extended periods to be in that game. Highly unlikely any new player will have any success without very deep pockets. But what do I know?

I would be more worried about US carriers lobbying Congress for "guest worker pilot visas," to you know, deal with the pilot shortage, and compete with foreign carriers. I would guess they would want something like an H1-B visa, which would essentially give them a 5 year indentured servant at the bottom of the pay scale.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
I would be more worried about US carriers lobbying Congress for "guest worker pilot visas," to you know, deal with the pilot shortage, and compete with foreign carriers. I would guess they would want something like an H1-B visa, which would essentially give them a 5 year indentured servant at the bottom of the pay scale.

This is already a big problem in Canada that the ALPA Canada Board is having to deal with. Carriers like Air Transat are hiring seasonal pilots from foreign countries on short term contracts rather than giving the jobs to Canadian pilots.
 
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