Thinking out-loud...

Pay and work rules are #1 priority to me, then all the other stuff. But everybody is different.


Here is the thing, if you get a LOI from the FAA for an altitude bust your priorities will change.

Instead of looking at ALPA from the industrial standpoint, you will look at it from the safety/engineering side of it. See what Polar wrote.
 
That depends what a pilot group's definition of better is.

Yes, ALPA has a mountain legal resources, medical resourcdes, jumpseat coordinators, etc.

But to another group pay, time off, and scope might be important.

Quite frankly if I worked at Mesa, or Great Lakes maybe my priorities aren't so much with having somebody behind me for if I mess up. But rather making sure I get a livable wage.

Quite frankly if I'm being treated poorly at work, my priorities are going to be to fix that. Rather than have someone standing behind me if something goes wrong.

I guess to sum it up in non literal terms. If you can't buy groceries, what do you care about insurance? One thing has to come before the others. Pay and work rules are #1 priority to me, then all the other stuff. But everybody is different.

You should know better. ALPA national has very little to do with pay and QOL talk to your LEC and MEC rep's.
 
I think I will, didn't realize they were in D.C. but I guess that would make sense. :)

-James

If you don't have any luck getting set up, let one of us know and I'm sure we can get it taken care of. Heck, you might even find one of our very own up in DC.

And Joe. . .

Clearly pay is not a couple of our peers' #1 priorty

Even if you are off-duty, the uniform must be all or nothing. About a half dozen pilots have been stopped in the last few weeks with no tie on in the concourse, but with wings and epaulets proudly displayed. The response from each pilot has been that they were off-duty. Passengers don’t know your off-duty, they just see an ASA pilot sporting the hybrid collegiate flight instructor casual Friday look; not confidence building. When in view of the public, even off-duty or when commuting, wear the full uniform, or take your wings and epaulets off.

:banghead:
 
Somewhere at sometime, it would be great for every Airline union to come together under one umbrella, for one universal cause. But the very reason that multiple unions exist, is the very reason a single union, single seniority list will never be accomplished.

I like apples and you like oranges. There will never be agreement.

For every 10 people, 5 will be for ALPA, 5 will be against.

No matter how big the pecker or how hard you push, you will never pee uphill. It will always roll back over your feet.
 
That depends what a pilot group's definition of better is.

Yes, ALPA has a mountain legal resources, medical resourcdes, jumpseat coordinators, etc.

But to another group pay, time off, and scope might be important.

your dissatisfaction isnt with ALPA, its with the local reps you guys keep voting in, the MEC those members select and the members of the NC and other committees. Going to IBT wont change any of this, you'll still have the local leadership doing everything they do now, you just wont have national resources to help them and/or you.

If you want better QoL, pay, scope, etc, IBT isnt the answer. The answer is recalling your reps, voting in people that want the same things you do and voting NO when the crappy TA comes from the NC. If you have a crappy contract its because, in part, of the reps who were elected/volunteered into various positions and ultimately with the pilots who ratified the contract, NOT because of the national association you happen to fall under.
 
your dissatisfaction isnt with ALPA, its with the local reps you guys keep voting in, the MEC those members select and the members of the NC and other committees. Going to IBT wont change any of this, you'll still have the local leadership doing everything they do now, you just wont have national resources to help them and/or you.

If you want better QoL, pay, scope, etc, IBT isnt the answer. The answer is recalling your reps, voting in people that want the same things you do and voting NO when the crappy TA comes from the NC. If you have a crappy contract its because, in part, of the reps who were elected/volunteered into various positions and ultimately with the pilots who ratified the contract, NOT because of the national association you happen to fall under.

:yeahthat:

Ding, ding, ding...

We have a winner!


Just my opinion, of course...


Kevin
 
If Mesa was IBT they'd have the same crappy contract (maybe even worse) except when/if I ever got violated, or get my medical denied I'd be on my own. The responsibility for that is on the people who negotiated the contract which probably would be the SAME people who would have negotiated a contract if there was IBT instead of ALPA.

ALPA national is like a big toolbox, sitting there eagerly waiting for people to reach in and pull out what they need. But it's not going to solve your problems for you... maybe a wrench is exactly what you need, but just because you have one doesn't mean that the wrench is going to grow legs, walk over to whatever you need wrenching and do it itself.
 
your dissatisfaction isnt with ALPA, its with the local reps you guys keep voting in, the MEC those members select and the members of the NC and other committees. Going to IBT wont change any of this, you'll still have the local leadership doing everything they do now, you just wont have national resources to help them and/or you.

If you want better QoL, pay, scope, etc, IBT isnt the answer. The answer is recalling your reps, voting in people that want the same things you do and voting NO when the crappy TA comes from the NC. If you have a crappy contract its because, in part, of the reps who were elected/volunteered into various positions and ultimately with the pilots who ratified the contract, NOT because of the national association you happen to fall under.

Actually I'm not THAT dissastisfied. I just don't agree with those jumping up and down screaming ALPA IS THE ONLY WAY! Because clearly its not.
 
....but ABX, World and NetJets all got great contracts by the IBT.
Half right.

The IBT 747/284, said NetJets TA was the "richest they have ever seen." It was OVERWHELMINGLY REJECTED by the membership (2004). Shortly thereafter, we founded our own IBT local (out with the 284/in with the 1108......Nov 8th...get it :insane:; founding date ).

The "old MEC" was voted out, the new "NetJets ibt Local" wrote the new TA which passed. 3 years later, the 1108 severed ties with the IBT and founded NJASAP

None of the former ALPA members at NJA want anything to do with ALPA or the IBT.


http://www.ainonline.com/ain-and-ai...&tx_ttnews[story_pointer]=1&tx_ttnews[mode]=1

http://ain.gcnpublishing.com/ain-an...ts-reach-accord/?no_cache=1&tx_ttnews[mode]=1
 
Half right.

The IBT 747/284, said NetJets TA was the "richest they have ever seen." It was OVERWHELMINGLY REJECTED by the membership (2004). Shortly thereafter, we founded our own IBT local (out with the 284/in with the 1108......Nov 8th...get it :insane:; founding date ).

The "old MEC" was voted out, the new "NetJets ibt Local" wrote the new TA which passed. 3 years later, the 1108 severed ties with the IBT and founded NJASAP

None of the former ALPA members at NJA want anything to do with ALPA or the IBT.


http://www.ainonline.com/ain-and-ai...&tx_ttnews[story_pointer]=1&tx_ttnews[mode]=1

http://ain.gcnpublishing.com/ain-an...ts-reach-accord/?no_cache=1&tx_ttnews[mode]=1

I knew this, only about the failed TA, the switch of the locals and MEC from a buddy that's a CA there.

I articulated it very poorly, so thank you for clarifying what went on at NJA.

It does go to show that a dedicated group of pilots can do great things, with the help of, or inspite of, their national affiliate.
 
Here is the thing, if you get a LOI from the FAA for an altitude bust your priorities will change.

Instead of looking at ALPA from the industrial standpoint, you will look at it from the safety/engineering side of it. See what Polar wrote.

That's a bit of a stretch. If you get an LOI for an altitude bust, you likely will first have gotten a call from your CP, because he got a call from the Fed's.

Either way, the first question anyone...ALPA or IBT Airline Division Legal will ask is, "did you file a NASA report?" The investigation will have nothing to do with air safety and engineering, but with legal...unless there was an equipment malfunction...in which case, if you didn't write it up in the log or notify someone on landing, your case for blaming the equipment is pretty thin.

Fact is, both sides have legal departments with aviation and airline experience. Both have safety people with extensive airline and NTSB experience. Both have "Go" teams and on site status at incidents and accidents when requested.

No one place has a "lock" on anything. I've seen people in both unions get really good results and really lousy results. It comes down to the individual case and the facts.
 
That depends what a pilot group's definition of better is.

Yes, ALPA has a mountain legal resources, medical resourcdes, jumpseat coordinators, etc.

(Shortened for brevity)

ALPA, like IBT contracts out for medical services. Both operations provide the same level of service and have the same contacts within FAA Aeromedical. Both ALPA and IBT have Jumpseat coordinators at the respective member airlines (as do IPA, APA, SWAPA, USAPA and others). All of them coordinate and work together.

IBT and ALPA both have lawyers who are industry and labor specific to FAA and RLA issues. Both also provide access to legal services with discounted rates through their respective umbrella organizations. (IBT and AFL-CIO for ALPA)

Same with a lot of other things as well. AFL-CIO's program is called "Union Plus" and IBT calls theirs "Teamster Priviledge."

Hope this provides some more clarity.
 
Back
Top