Thinking out-loud...

I liken this to the 200-hour wonder argument.

Someone gets schooled up on a subject, interacts with it for 12-18 months and they are experts. The people of varied walks of life with more experience under the system are suddenly dumbasses.

Experience allows practical application of knowledge.

If I'm coming off like that I don't mean it. I'm trying to learn more about the union's and form my own ideas.

Seggy: What I am trying to pick apart is why ALPA is so much better in many minds then the IBT? It just feels a lot of the arguments that ALPA supporters use are then contradicted on another issue. Just brainstorming idea's not trying to preach to the professor's on this one.
 
Mesa - ALPA contract

Atlas - Alpa Contract

Arrow - IBT

Gulfstream - IBT

None of the above are barn burners.
 
Seggy: What I am trying to pick apart is why ALPA is so much better in many minds then the IBT? It just feels a lot of the arguments that ALPA supporters use are then contradicted on another issue. Just brainstorming idea's not trying to preach to the professor's on this one.

The resources ALPA offers to the pilot groups are second to none. I can go on and on about that, but hopefully that answers your question.
 
The resources ALPA offers to the pilot groups are second to none. I can go on and on about that, but hopefully that answers your question.

Understood.

And again this is someone from the outside looking in, ALPA seems to have very good resources. Many of you have said this and it seems like really reliable second hand information.

However QoL, Work Rules, & Pay Blows.

It seems as if a single unionized work force would help the effort. It just seems that all airlines going one way or the other would be next to impossible unless ALPA was absorbed. Crazy as it may sound I'm just brainstorming whether it makes sense or not. It would also be nice to see IBT at the CFI random 91 level which I don't really see ALPA touching. I could be seriously wrong.
 
It would also be nice to see IBT at the CFI random 91 level which I don't really see ALPA touching. I could be seriously wrong.

You called the IBT 747 up about this just yet?

You ask the NMB for election cards at your work place?

How are you going to organize the many CFIs, who largely, are waiting for that "airline" to ring them up and tell them to strap on this jet.

CFIs, largely, could care less about protecting the profession from any further downward spiral. At least those I worked with about two years ago. None of them had really heard about the trials and tribulations all who came before us went through. The most they probably heard was from their Aviation Labor Law professor who perhaps was never in the aviation industry, or if they were - they were a management stooge who certainly wasn't going to give a fair assessment of trade unionism within our profession.

Anyway. I honestly think you're onto something James. Go get it though.
 
How could the IBT fix this?

We all know the IBT isn't the top of the top, but ABX, World and Netjets all got great contracts by the IBT. Arguably, Horizon's contract is good too.

ALPA has some great contracts. However, they have some really, really crappy regional (and other) contracts.
 
So what are you going to do sit around or try to make it better? How could the IBT fix this?

I really want to be part of the solution and not the problem. I would love to try and form a union at my CFI job however I know I will be fired for it and others I work with would just not deal w/ it.

I'm not saying the IBT right now could fix it as is. However as it looks to me IBT and ALPA are not as strong separate, as one single voice. I just can't imagine that enough airlines would go one way or another anytime soon to create that single voice.
 
Understood.

And again this is someone from the outside looking in, ALPA seems to have very good resources. Many of you have said this and it seems like really reliable second hand information.

However QoL, Work Rules, & Pay Blows.

It seems as if a single unionized work force would help the effort. It just seems that all airlines going one way or the other would be next to impossible unless ALPA was absorbed. Crazy as it may sound I'm just brainstorming whether it makes sense or not. It would also be nice to see IBT at the CFI random 91 level which I don't really see ALPA touching. I could be seriously wrong.

I think you don't fully understand how ALPA and IBT works. ALPA and IBT are not true Unions they are Associations more so ALPA then IBT. They both have very little to do with QOL, work rules, and pay. The individual MEC's have control of those things.
What the IBT and ALPA do offer is a voice for pilots and resources to pilots and MEC's.
Now based on this info who would you pick the IBT or ALPA?
P.S.- In-Houes is unreal for most pilot groups(cost).
 
I think that how the Colgan contract ends up will show the potential difference that ALPA can make. One way or another.

You can talk all you want, but results speak much louder.

*I'm not against ALPA I just don't agree in blanket statements saying that you're much better off with ALPA representation than someone else. That is clearly not the case.
 
I think that how the Colgan contract ends up will show the potential difference that ALPA can make. One way or another.

You can talk all you want, but results speak much louder.

*I'm not against ALPA I just don't agree in blanket statements saying that you're much better off with ALPA representation than someone else. That is clearly not the case.

Varies.

From group to group.

The group decides what is best, not a couple of psychos on the interweb.
 
I think that how the Colgan contract ends up will show the potential difference that ALPA can make. One way or another.

You can talk all you want, but results speak much louder.

*I'm not against ALPA I just don't agree in blanket statements saying that you're much better off with ALPA representation than someone else. That is clearly not the case.

But you are better with ALPA resources then without them.
 
But you are better with ALPA resources then without them.

Absolutely fact, as I read it for personal issues.

The verdict is still out with the 1224, as I haven't heard of any medical/legal things in work.

747, you were purely on your own.

This is why Polar742 got AOPA (with the ATP legal) when we went to IBT.
 
But you are better with ALPA resources then without them.

That depends what a pilot group's definition of better is.

Yes, ALPA has a mountain legal resources, medical resourcdes, jumpseat coordinators, etc.

But to another group pay, time off, and scope might be important.

Quite frankly if I worked at Mesa, or Great Lakes maybe my priorities aren't so much with having somebody behind me for if I mess up. But rather making sure I get a livable wage.

Quite frankly if I'm being treated poorly at work, my priorities are going to be to fix that. Rather than have someone standing behind me if something goes wrong.

I guess to sum it up in non literal terms. If you can't buy groceries, what do you care about insurance? One thing has to come before the others. Pay and work rules are #1 priority to me, then all the other stuff. But everybody is different.
 
James maybe you should call ALPA and see if you can set up a tour of the HQ I think it will open your eyes.

I think I will, didn't realize they were in D.C. but I guess that would make sense. :)

-James
 
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