Thinking of becoming a pilot?

With all due respect, MikeD, it seems like you really hold a grudge against Mesa. Obviously, they have a reputation for being on the lower end of the totem pole when it comes to QOL or pay (though they're right about in the middle when it comes to pay). But it seems that many posts relating to a regional airline you write, you make derogatory reference specifically to Mesa Airines and often the inability/stupidity of their pilots. I suppose I might understand if you were a pilot for a competing regional or even Mesa itself, but you don't fly commercially.

Just curious ...
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With all due respect, MikeD, it seems like you really hold a grudge against Mesa. Obviously, they have a reputation for being on the lower end of the totem pole when it comes to QOL or pay (though they're right about in the middle when it comes to pay). But it seems that many posts relating to a regional airline you write, you make derogatory reference specifically to Mesa Airines and often the inability/stupidity of their pilots. I suppose I might understand if you were a pilot for a competing regional or even Mesa itself, but you don't fly commercially.

Just curious ...
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I don't think Mesa's pilots are stupid at all, nor have I said that. I do believe that people that want to work for Mesa (ie- deliberately work for substandard wage and QOL) do give the wrong impression to management of what pilots are worth....read John Hs comments on ESF turning that down.....a move I respect.

The only problem I have with Mesa is the company and it's policies and culture, I have nothing against the pilots other than what I just mentioned. In the Flagstaff, Arizona story I related in my above post, it just happened to be a Mesa aircraft. Again, note that I slam on the company for what I perceive or assume could possibly have caused "pressure to perform". I wouldn't put that above the company or it's CEO.

Mesa Air Group the company= bad, IMO.

Mesa's pilots= pilots like anyone else qualification-wise. Wish they could do something about their pay/QOL situation, though, IMO. I hope the best for them.
 
I gotcha. I agree, it's frustrating to see J. Low demean his pilot group, serving a once "respectable" occupation in society, and in turn have a domino effect on the entire industry.

Thanks.
 
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I gotcha. I agree, it's frustrating to see J. Low demean his pilot group, serving a once "respectable" occupation in society, and in turn have a domino effect on the entire industry.

Thanks.

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No problem. Glad I could clear that up, since I don't want the wrong impression being made. I'm all for the pilots in the industry. Specifically referring to the regional airlines...it's a travesty the work those guys do compared to the convenience store wages they receive. The domino-effect you mention is no kidding.

Regards,

Mike
 
I tend to just look the other way most of the time when it comes to Mesa bashing, some of it is warranted, some not. I'm around Mesa pilots every day and they don't seem to be better or worse than any other pilots when it comes to ethics/morals (Freedom may be a little different).

Most people seem to be a little misinformed when it comes to pay at Mesa. For one, mesa pilots get paid for 13 "months" as opposed to 12 at most other airlines. Pay at Mesa is lower than SkyW and Comair, but roughly the same as AE, Chautauqua, and ASA.

QOL at Mesa seems to be notably bad, and horror stories of pilots v. management are all to common. How much worse it is at Mesa than at other regionals I do not know, but I'm sure Mesa isn't alone on some of these issues.

Obviously the situation with Mesa's management is unfortunate, but I think lately the Mesa pilots have stood up for themselves honorably. I cite the manner in which Mesa pilots handled the 737 issue as an example.
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I do believe that people that want to work for Mesa (ie- deliberately work for substandard wage and QOL) do give the wrong impression to management of what pilots are worth.

[/ QUOTE ]As an MPD student I guess I could be placed into this category. There are many reasons that I chose this program over others, wanting to work for Mesa really wasn't one of them, nor is it really for most people here (MPD Farmington may be a different story). However, regardless of intent, my money as well as others ends up going to Mesa Air Group, and frankly I really don't know how to feel about that. I'm recieving good training at a reasonable price, I don't think Mesa makes a ton of money from MPD, but I could be wrong.

For now I'll keep doing what I'm doing and when or if I am offered an interview with Mesa (three years from now) I will have been a CFI for about two years, so I really can't predict what my situation will be. Here at ASU, most people have 1000+ hours when they are called. Many already have something set up and decline the interview. I'd guess maybe 1/3 end up going somewhere else.

Anyway, just sharing my thoughts and opinions.
 
Appreciate and respect your insights Missed. Appears you know the day-to-day of the operation and are taking things as they come. Sometimes, that's the best thing to do.
 
Hear hear, enough of the Mesa bashing. The people who have/do actually work there (JT and Bogberto) have both said it ain't as bad as it's cracked up to be--in fact, JT has said more than once that he wishes he could go back! Doesn't exactly sound like Auschwitz to me. As FlyChicaga's getting stiffed for time he ACTUALLY FLEW so poignantly illustrates, the grass isn't greener everywhere else. Moreover, as bad as someone might say regional x is, and how regional y pays so much better, let's not forget that regional y still pays crap compared to mainline partner z.
 
Mesa gets a bad rap. It's so easy to point to Mesa and say "look they dragged us down."

People forget that Mesa has NEVER had PFT.

People forget that ASA and Comair, the "industry leading contracts," were the FIRST to start charging people for training and the LAST to get rid of it.

People seem to forget about places like Colgan, Great Lakes, Commutair, etc, where pay rates are lower and QOL issues abound.

Everybody points to the CEO and says, "bad dude!"

Do this for me - show me a regional CEO that is NOT hated by his pilot group.

People point to Freedom and say "how awful! Alter Ego airline!"

Do this for me - what airline has NOT tried to capitalize on 9-11 and scope agreements?

Bog tells me that Mesa has gotten worse. It got bad during the times I was there but good times always follow bad times. I felt that if I could endure the bad times I would gain seniority, because more people left. The good times were good times.

The things Bog tells me that have gotten worse seem to be industry wide as well. Chautauqua, Comair and ASA pilots tell me horror stories about being fired for bogus reasons, junior assigned on their honeymoon, short staffing, no reserves where they should be, etc.

MikeD it's obvious that you think Mesa is the reason for the industry slippage.

I'd like to propose to you that Mesa is just another symptom. I've always felt the reason for the industry slippage was "the dream."

"The dream" is supplying the industry with young pilots who will do anything to get an airline job. You know, "THE DREAM."

"THE DREAM" that makes a pilot fly for nothing, or even worse, pay to fly.

"THE DREAM" that makes pilots hang around airports looking for flights so they can pad their logbook and be "more competitive."

"THE DREAM" that is propogated by every large flight school in the world - just look at the ads! "Hired!" "Shortcut to the Airline!" "Guaranteed Interview!"

I think I would point the fingers somewhere else.
 
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I tend to just look the other way most of the time when it comes to Mesa bashing, some of it is warranted, some not.

For now I'll keep doing what I'm doing and when or if I am offered an interview with Mesa (three years from now) I will have been a CFI for about two years, so I really can't predict what my situation will be. Here at ASU, most people have 1000+ hours when they are called. Many already have something set up and decline the interview. I'd guess maybe 1/3 end up going somewhere else.

Anyway, just sharing my thoughts and opinions.

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Mesa draws a lot of fire. But this is all really irrelevant to you. In the next 3 years you will be watching this industry completely re-invent itself. Some of the current players won't exist any more. It will be a larger scale version of the first small shakeout that took away airlines like, Eastern, Frontier, the old Continental, Braniff, Pan-Am, etc.

The big question is will there be a national pilot's union extant with any clout. I'm betting no, and the reason is scope. It won't be a nice place without a national union. But ALPA shot themselves in the foot on this one years ago. It will be interesting to see how they confront it.

You will be in a relatively good spot to watch the drama unfold.
Then it will be time to pick where or if to go to work.

Good luck.

Dave
 
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Do this for me - show me a regional CEO that is NOT hated by his pilot group.

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Skywest?

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Do this for me - what airline has NOT tried to capitalize on 9-11 and scope agreements?

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Horizon?

The article hasn't come out yet in Harvard Business Review that the most successful companies don't wage war against their employees (SWA?) -- but when it does, it'll come under the phrase "paradigm shift" or "new horizon" or something like that.

Here's a good example of why the business sucks. Kristie and I went to a new local pizza joint for lunch yesterday. She ordered a calzone and I an Italian beef sandwich. Sprinkled throughout the lobby were some magazines with the address clipped off -- a good indication that they probably arrived at the proprietor's home and he was simply providing his customers with something to read during lunch time.

I ran across some anti union articles about hiring these two bald thugs to 'show your employees the light' and another article that, talked about a wine and bread store.

With the wine and bread store, the magazine sent three of their expert consultants to review the wine and bread store operations.

One of their suggestions was to completely outsource the bread production because it wasted time and he could find cheaper (did not say 'better') bread from a third party. Meanwhile, the store owner initially got into the business because he loved baking artisan breads and matching it with wine.

How does this relate to the airline business? Well, we've put too much faith in consultants that really don't know jack about the business of running an airline.

"Oh yeah, an airline within an airline, within an airline is a great idea! Freedom will kick those union miscreants right in the butt!" -- and people fell head over heels to jump onboard.

But what did it do for the workers or the core product? Not a thing, but the deleterious effects will live on for decades.
 
John,

Mesa is just one of the symptoms, the same as Gulfstream, Great Lakes, Continental Express, etc, that are in the same genre of low pay/lousy QOL regionals. Mesa Air Group just happens to be the largest fish of these, and hence draws the most fire. I've nothing really against the pilots, it's the companies themselves that irk me.

If, as a regional, you proclaim to the world that "the shoe fits me!", don't be surprised when people call you on it.
 
Being an east coaster primarily I'm not too familair with Horizon or Skywest.

I do know that Skywest is non-union, that's about it.

I agree about consultants. Even though I am one, I have seen a lot of abuse. Here's a great one from www.despair.com :
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I see so many people say, be more like Southwest. Well, that shows that they first of all have no clue about how the industry works, because airlines with aircraft ranging from MD-80s/737s to 747s can't be like Southwest.

But then they ignore the rest of it. Hello, guys, one of the reason that Southwest is so successful is that they treat their employees well. And they reap huge rewards from it.

There's a study out that shows undoubtedly that companies that treat their employees well have better stock performance over the long run. CEOs ought to look at that and say, hey, I can line my pockets more if I treat the employees well because the stock price will go up.

But they're just looking at the next quarter's estimates.
 
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There's another word for people who refuse to hear about anything negative: successful

I can't help but remember the guys I knew at TWA who tried to discourage me because they were upset with their situation.

Dave

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I agree with flyover here. Being bitter and negative will only attract more bitter and negative things. Just because its that way for you doesn't mean it will be that way for everybody that gets into this career. Sounds like your just complaining about your life. There's always something to complain about in your chosen career. No career is perfect.

Talk about putting a damper on ones dreams. Why don't all the aspiring pilots right now just throw up their hands and give up just because this might just happen to them.I hate it when you have a plan then you come to a place like this and read these things. I also hate it when I read things like "wow. Its a good thing I read this and know what I'm getting into". Sure, just set yourself up for a disaster and it will for sure happen. Just end your career plans because of one guy's post. Your trying to look for the good in your chosen career. If we all started focusing on the bad things, there would be nobody to do this career.

Your obviously not afraid to speak your mind and I respect that. Its fine to complain about your life but don't say things like "thinking about becoming a pilot? Well here's what's in store for you". Not everybody turns out like that. Its funny how I always have the negative rubbed in my face. Maybe things are so negative because people make it negative. And no I'm not naieve, I'm well aware of the risks of getting into this career. But instead of looking at it that way, look at why you got into it. If you really lost the passion for flying, then get out of it ASAP.

I seem like I'm the only one here that disagrees with your post. Go ahead and disagree back with me but what we need in this world is more positive, uplifting discussions instead of negative, depressing discussions. There's way too many of them and I for one are sick and tired of looking at it all the time. I always try to look at the good instead of the bad and more should do the same. You would be surprised if you started to look at the good instead of always the bad how good you have things. Its called counting your blessings. And it will get better, it always does. Reality doesn't have to be negative. It will be as what you make it to be. Somebody else can't make it for you unless you let them get to you.

It sucks about the pay thing but that's the company's fault, not the flying. That could happen in any job. It sucks if you happen to be working for a crooked company but there's many job's out there like that its not just flying jobs like everybody perceives. I'm sure if you went to a doctors forum, they would be complaining about the same thing. And as far as your credit card problem, I know you will scoff at this, but no matter what happens, try not to live off your credit cards. I know its hard but there's a way around anything. My parents went bankrupt because they lived off their credit cards because of the same problem (dad didn't get paycheck for 6 months so you think you had it bad.) But I learned from their mistake and said to myself that no matter how desperate I am, I will only use a credit card in an absolute extreme emergencies and that's not living off of it. Your just setting yourself up for a bad credit history and other problems. Its not something you can't help, you can. The problem is that negativity. It blinds you to think clearly. And no I wouldn't be glad to be in your shoes. The flying part maybe, but not the attitude.
 
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[. Go ahead and disagree back with me but what we need in this world is more positive, uplifting discussions instead of negative, depressing discussions. There's way too many of them and I for one are sick and tired of looking at it all the time. I always try to look at the good instead of the bad and more should do the same. You would be surprised if you started to look at the good instead of always the bad how good you have things. Its called counting your blessings. And it will get better, it always does. Reality doesn't have to be negative. It will be as what you make it to be. Somebody else can't make it for you unless you let them get to you.

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Agree and disagree. There needs to be a balance of both kinds of info. Those that walk around complaining about everything are no better than those that walk around with rose-colored glasses thinking that a job at a regional paying beans is the best thing since sliced bread.
 
To me, EatSleepFly's post just seems like another rant by a disgruntled employee. Of course when something good happens, nobody talks about it because they don't need it. His title "Thinking about becoming a pilot?" should be titled "My life sucks and so will yours". What gain does anybody get by reading this depressing story? What gain does ESF get by discouraging others with his rants? I disagree with his post because I disagree with the title of the post. I wouldn't be saying anything if he just said he was having a bad day in his title but now he has to go and worry others with his misfortune and that's why I can't see what gain he's hoping for. I can't see why anybody would get stratification of ruining ones dreams. If I wanted to become anything else like say a doctor, the last thing I would want to read is things like that. That's why I'm tired of seeing these posts. There just there to make people feel sorry for you because I hardly consider this career advice. I hate my job that I have now too but I don't go around complaining it to people. What good does that do unless you take one guy's advice that serious?
 
I really didn't read it that way at all. Primarily because I've been there before and I feel his pain.

You've got to be pretty tough to make it in this profession and I took it as saying 'if you like flight sim and you think flying is going to be 'k00l d00d cos you get to fly jetz'' here's your wake up call.

This career does have it's ups and downs. Don't let the downs get you too down but don't let the highs blind you to the reality of the situation.

Similar to people screaming 'happy happy joy joy' when they're flying a 50-seat jet for $20k/year. Granted it's a lot sweeter than flying a 30-pax turboprop for less, but the $20k/year 50-seat jet job used to be a Northwest DC-9-15 job that paid appreciably more.

Upside? You've got a job.

Downside? You're doing a job that paid way more and had far better benefits at a period of time.

Reality? Well, someplace in the middle; your mileage may vary.
 
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