Thinking About Sun Country?

Skåning said:
Yeah it was my friend who I helped get hired that just left for Envoy as a street captain. The schedules have taken a HUGE hit and quality of life has plummeted, leading to many people questioning staying at the company. All this sadly, with no sign of improving.
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Surely they realize what the schedules and quality of life on reserve (which they will presumably be on for many years as a street captain, unless they get downgraded) at a regional are like? There is no job protection at the regionals either. Just ask Comair. I hope making a backward career move works out for them, but it sounds like an insanely bad decision to me.
 
Skåning said:
Yeah it was my friend who I helped get hired that just left for Envoy as a street captain. The schedules have taken a HUGE hit and quality of life has plummeted, leading to many people questioning staying at the company. All this sadly, with no sign of improving.

You guys looking at AS from the outside have no idea what kind of operation it is. Your fantasies about flying an Eskimo tailed airplane around Alaska are cute, but there is absolutely no comparison between AS and the legacy carriers. Sure they may be the biggest game in town in AK, but in the rest of the country they're trailing way behind. It's easy to be fooled into thinking they're in the same league, hell they have 737s and A320s, just like the big 3! This is completely wrong and there is zero evidence to suggest that AS has the economic viability to survive going forward, essentially they're a credit card company that codeshares and outsources most of their flying.

Sure they have a lock on flying in their namesake state, but that certainly is not enough to sustain an airline of 3000+ pilots and 300 airplanes. The fact is they are getting their ass kicked everywhere else that they've had to face competition. To add insult to injury, you can now fly coast to coast on a Skywest Alaska RJ. There is zero job protection here, don't think for a second that the future is guaranteed at AS.
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Look, no one understands being angry and bitter at an airline more than me. But leaving Alaska to go to Envoy is straight up stupid. You’ve got tunnel vision because you’re mad about certain conditions at your airline right now. But guess what? Conditions at every airline have sucked at one point or another. QOL and pay ebb and flow over time. But ultimately, Alaska isn’t going anywhere. You’d be nuts to leave if you’re there sitting in a somewhat decent position on the list. Sure, if you’re at 98% and get a call from Delta, go for it. But if you’re at 70%? Don’t be an idiot.
 
Skåning said:
To add insult to injury, you can now fly coast to coast on a Skywest Alaska RJ.
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Honestly this is the part that concerns me. What’s to stop them from out sourcing everything to Skywest? But it’s still a better situation than my current one, so if they call I’ll come running.
 
Skåning said:
Yeah it was my friend who I helped get hired that just left for Envoy as a street captain. The schedules have taken a HUGE hit and quality of life has plummeted, leading to many people questioning staying at the company. All this sadly, with no sign of improving.

You guys looking at AS from the outside have no idea what kind of operation it is. Your fantasies about flying an Eskimo tailed airplane around Alaska are cute, but there is absolutely no comparison between AS and the legacy carriers. Sure they may be the biggest game in town in AK, but in the rest of the country they're trailing way behind. It's easy to be fooled into thinking they're in the same league, hell they have 737s and A320s, just like the big 3! This is completely wrong and there is zero evidence to suggest that AS has the economic viability to survive going forward, essentially they're a credit card company that codeshares and outsources most of their flying.

Sure they have a lock on flying in their namesake state, but that certainly is not enough to sustain an airline of 3000+ pilots and 300 airplanes. The fact is they are getting their ass kicked everywhere else that they've had to face competition. To add insult to injury, you can now fly coast to coast on a Skywest Alaska RJ. There is zero job protection here, don't think for a second that the future is guaranteed at AS.
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lolz.

I know what my buddies over there are doing and making, I absolutely know what kind of operation it is. I also know that it's immeasurably better than Envoy or any other non-legacy operation out there.

It ain't about a fantasy of flying the Eskimo-jet - it's a fantasy of having a safe job with a good benefits that is secure. It's about having a career that has a future where the logo on the jet matches the logo on the check. It's about making enough money to retire in 10 years if you're not elbows and buttholes in debt. It's about having a job at a company with an 86 year history. I don't think AS has ever gone through bankruptcy either - Tilden may be an ass, but they're not "dumb."

I'll buy you lunch and give you $50 if you get furloughed from Alaska in the next 10 years (unless I'm out of the job too then you're on your own). It ain't gonna happen, but if it does, you'll need the help.
 
Skåning said:
Yeah it was my friend who I helped get hired that just left for Envoy as a street captain. The schedules have taken a HUGE hit and quality of life has plummeted, leading to many people questioning staying at the company. All this sadly, with no sign of improving.

You guys looking at AS from the outside have no idea what kind of operation it is. Your fantasies about flying an Eskimo tailed airplane around Alaska are cute, but there is absolutely no comparison between AS and the legacy carriers. Sure they may be the biggest game in town in AK, but in the rest of the country they're trailing way behind. It's easy to be fooled into thinking they're in the same league, hell they have 737s and A320s, just like the big 3! This is completely wrong and there is zero evidence to suggest that AS has the economic viability to survive going forward, essentially they're a credit card company that codeshares and outsources most of their flying.

Sure they have a lock on flying in their namesake state, but that certainly is not enough to sustain an airline of 3000+ pilots and 300 airplanes. The fact is they are getting their ass kicked everywhere else that they've had to face competition. To add insult to injury, you can now fly coast to coast on a Skywest Alaska RJ. There is zero job protection here, don't think for a second that the future is guaranteed at AS.
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Your friend is a moron. Sorry...
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Now you're making an assumption. You're assuming AS will be around long term, as opposed to going the way of all the other airlines that have failed. Who's more likely to be around in 30+ yrs? AA, DL, UA, or AS? Don't get me wrong, I would like if AS exists long term whether as stand alone or bought/merged into another carrier. But look at Pan Am, Braniff, Eastern, airlines that had been around for decades that ceased operations. No merger/buyout saved those pilots.

But I see your point. And I'm slowly moving towards the point of just perhaps sticking it out here, move west (again), and seeing what happens.
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If you move west again I'd move to SEA. Being in the "big hub" always seems to have added benefits. Might as well take advantage if you’re going to go through the hassle of moving for the job.
 
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Skåning said:
Yeah it was my friend who I helped get hired that just left for Envoy as a street captain. The schedules have taken a HUGE hit and quality of life has plummeted, leading to many people questioning staying at the company. All this sadly, with no sign of improving.

You guys looking at AS from the outside have no idea what kind of operation it is. Your fantasies about flying an Eskimo tailed airplane around Alaska are cute, but there is absolutely no comparison between AS and the legacy carriers. Sure they may be the biggest game in town in AK, but in the rest of the country they're trailing way behind. It's easy to be fooled into thinking they're in the same league, hell they have 737s and A320s, just like the big 3! This is completely wrong and there is zero evidence to suggest that AS has the economic viability to survive going forward, essentially they're a credit card company that codeshares and outsources most of their flying.

Sure they have a lock on flying in their namesake state, but that certainly is not enough to sustain an airline of 3000+ pilots and 300 airplanes. The fact is they are getting their ass kicked everywhere else that they've had to face competition. To add insult to injury, you can now fly coast to coast on a Skywest Alaska RJ. There is zero job protection here, don't think for a second that the future is guaranteed at AS.
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United really seems to be snapping up a lot of AS pilots that are gettin' froggy and looking to jump.
 
ppragman said:
I can't even F-ing fathom this. Why the hell would you quit a job that essentially guarantees you a comfortable life with substantial control over your schedule to go to another company that offers essentially the exact same thing. Do you know how many people would legitimately kill for the opportunity to have that kind of security in their lives.
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As I've mentioned, the only reason would be to stay in the east coast in the NYC area. I get a paid professional packing move the house/2 cars/travel/meals/temp living assistance so the move back west won't be that bad since they'll be doing most of the hard work involved with moving. I really don't care what I fly (narrow/wide, domestic/intl) so my only reason for the big 3 is NYC. At this point I know I have to move in 2019 at some point and once I do that, a big part of me says just stick it out and see what happens. 8th yr pay is coming up soon. It gets harder and harder to give that kinda thing up.


Skåning said:
Yeah it was my friend who I helped get hired that just left for Envoy as a street captain. The schedules have taken a HUGE hit and quality of life has plummeted, leading to many people questioning staying at the company. All this sadly, with no sign of improving.

You guys looking at AS from the outside have no idea what kind of operation it is. Your fantasies about flying an Eskimo tailed airplane around Alaska are cute, but there is absolutely no comparison between AS and the legacy carriers. Sure they may be the biggest game in town in AK, but in the rest of the country they're trailing way behind. It's easy to be fooled into thinking they're in the same league, hell they have 737s and A320s, just like the big 3! This is completely wrong and there is zero evidence to suggest that AS has the economic viability to survive going forward, essentially they're a credit card company that codeshares and outsources most of their flying.

Sure they have a lock on flying in their namesake state, but that certainly is not enough to sustain an airline of 3000+ pilots and 300 airplanes. The fact is they are getting their ass kicked everywhere else that they've had to face competition. To add insult to injury, you can now fly coast to coast on a Skywest Alaska RJ. There is zero job protection here, don't think for a second that the future is guaranteed at AS.
Click to expand...

But he's leaving primarily for the goal of obtaining TPIC. That's a very specific goal-oriented move with a huge opportunity cost and hopeful eventual payoff if he's young enough. I won't lie, I considered it too and considered applying to jetBlue until I found out I got a CA spot.

As for the rest, I do think it's greatly exaggerated by us because of the merger disappointments and changes. Trailing way behind? 7th yr CA here I'm 232/hr, Delta 7th yr CA is 246/hr. That's at 94.2% of Delta pay. Do I wish it was higher? Absolutely (and next year I'd go to 244/hr and I'm sure Delta goes higher than 246 to their 2019 rate). But this whole trailing way behind thing has to be looked at within reason. In 3 months we get 15.5% retirement, Delta gives 16% today. Do I wish we had that 0.5% more? Absolutely. But come on, it's not like we're making Frontier wages. Our pay/retirement can certainly use an improvement. Considering this pay/retirement package directly came from binding arbitration and with us headed into direct contract negotiations, there's room for better improvements. Btw, I say a 23 yr United SFO 320 CA schedule (I was in the jumpseat and he showed me). It was horrendous. Like really really bad. To get the days off he needed the rest of his schedule was absolute $*@^

We may not get Delta pay, but at what Delta minus 'X' value would one still be happy with, or more importantly, still stick around for versus moving on? Then you have to figure the chart out about starting over at 1st yr pay and working your way up, and see how long that takes to make up the difference which today was within 94.2%. So I reiterate again that my desire to leave for the big 3 has nothing to do with pay, schedules, retirement, narrow/wide body, domestic/intl. It is solely for an east coast NYC base. I'd be a fool to want to give up within 94.2% pay of the big 3 to start over just to get 100% of those legacy pay.


The only big point I will admit we desperately need to fix is zero scope. We absolutely need better job protection here, RJ weight/seat limits, etc.
 
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ClarkGriswold said:
If you move west again I'd move to SEA. Being in the "big hub" always seems to have added benefits. Might as well take advantage if you’re going to go through the hassle of moving for the job.
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True. There's rumors about an A320 base in SEA. Another reason I'm trying to stay in the virtual NY base until it goes away for good after March 1. Buy as much time as I can before having to pull the trigger to move. I'm sure the company is waiting on the SLI and its conditions/restrictions before they start making any fleet/base decisions in terms of fences (if any), restrictions, etc, from the SLI result.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
As I've mentioned, the only reason would be to stay in the east coast in the NYC area. I get a paid professional packing move the house/2 cars/travel/meals/temp living assistance so the move back west won't be that bad since they'll be doing most of the hard work involved with moving. I really don't care what I fly (narrow/wide, domestic/intl) so my only reason for the big 3 is NYC. At this point I know I have to move in 2019 at some point and once I do that, a big part of me says just stick it out and see what happens. 8th yr pay is coming up soon. It gets harder and harder to give that kinda thing up.




But he's leaving primarily for the goal of obtaining TPIC. That's a very specific goal-oriented move with a huge opportunity cost and hopeful eventual payoff if he's young enough. I won't lie, I considered it too and considered applying to jetBlue until I found out I got a CA spot.

As for the rest, I do think it's greatly exaggerated by us because of the merger disappointments and changes. Trailing way behind? 7th yr CA here I'm 232/hr, Delta 7th yr CA is 246/hr. That's at 94.2% of Delta pay. Do I wish it was higher? Absolutely (and next year I'd go to 244/hr and I'm sure Delta goes higher than 246 to their 2019 rate). But this whole trailing way behind thing has to be looked at within reason. In 3 months we get 15.5% retirement, Delta gives 16% today. Do I wish we had that 0.5% more? Absolutely. But come on, it's not like we're making Frontier wages. Our pay/retirement can certainly use an improvement. Considering this pay/retirement package directly came from binding arbitration and with us headed into direct contract negotiations, there's room for better improvements. Btw, I say a 23 yr United SFO 320 CA schedule (I was in the jumpseat and he showed me). It was horrendous. Like really really bad. To get the days off he needed the rest of his schedule was absolute $*@^

We may not get Delta pay, but at what Delta minus 'X' value would one still be happy with, or more importantly, still stick around for versus moving on? Then you have to figure the chart out about starting over at 1st yr pay and working your way up, and see how long that takes to make up the difference which today was within 94.2%. So I reiterate again that my desire to leave for the big 3 has nothing to do with pay, schedules, retirement, narrow/wide body, domestic/intl. It is solely for an east coast NYC base. I'd be a fool to want to give up within 94.2% pay of the big 3 to start over just to get 100% of those legacy pay.


The only big point I will admit we desperately need to fix is zero scope. We absolutely need better job protection here, RJ weight/seat limits, etc.
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I get the desire to stay "close to home" - but honestly, you could afford to retire to a small farm in the adirondacks in 10 years.
 
ppragman said:
I get the desire to stay "close to home" - but honestly, you could afford to retire to a small farm in the adirondacks in 10 years.
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Haha prob not, but in any case at 34 I want to work and not retire that early. Honestly though living in base at a legacy is semi-retirement anyway.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Haha prob not, but in any case at 34 I want to work and not retire that early. Honestly though living in base at a legacy is semi-retirement anyway.
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It really depends on how much money you have in debt, if your significant other works, and the rate at which you can save. I’ve done the math if my wife and I live relatively comfortably but not extravagantly, we could retire within 10 to 15 years of me going to a major or legacy.

I could literally live the same life I live now plus take an extra two vacations a year, and still pay for my retirement in 10 to 15 years at pretty much every major. This probably isn't what I'm going to do if I get "the call" - I'll probably screw off as much as practical and blow it on toys and vacations, but in theory, I could walk away from it all 10 years after getting to Major Land - and if I can do it, with massive bills, I guarantee you can.

For my wife and I, if we live off of my wife's salary as a nurse, count everything over guarantee as "fun money," bank or invest 80% of what I make, then throw the rest of the money at bills, we're millionaires in about a decade (depending on the market, 15 years tops). Now, "do I want to do that" - probably not, but you could literally retire to in short order doing this sort of thing for a living.

Roger Roger said:
Man, this went far off the Sun Country rails.
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Sun Country is a decent place to work, that was figured out pretty quickly - the real story is in whether or not it is a good idea to quit Alaska F-ing Airlines to go to Envoy? (Like WTF?!)
 
ppragman said:
lolz.

I know what my buddies over there are doing and making, I absolutely know what kind of operation it is. I also know that it's immeasurably better than Envoy or any other non-legacy operation out there.

It ain't about a fantasy of flying the Eskimo-jet - it's a fantasy of having a safe job with a good benefits that is secure. It's about having a career that has a future where the logo on the jet matches the logo on the check. It's about making enough money to retire in 10 years if you're not elbows and buttholes in debt. It's about having a job at a company with an 86 year history. I don't think AS has ever gone through bankruptcy either - Tilden may be an ass, but they're not "dumb."

I'll buy you lunch and give you $50 if you get furloughed from Alaska in the next 10 years (unless I'm out of the job too then you're on your own). It ain't gonna happen, but if it does, you'll need the help.
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Alaska isn't the worst job out there, however it is far from a safe job. The lack of scope is huge threat to any pilot at Alaska flying the 737 or Airbus, and anyone who doesn't believe that our lack of scope is not going to be exploited by the company in upcoming negotiations is kidding themselves.
 
Reserve4Ever said:
Alaska isn't the worst job out there, however it is far from a safe job. The lack of scope is huge threat to any pilot at Alaska flying the 737 or Airbus, and anyone who doesn't believe that our lack of scope is not going to be exploited by the company in upcoming negotiations is kidding themselves.
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Yeah but we are talking about building TPIC... are you f’ing kidding me?
 
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