Theives vs Newbies

ATC RET 2003 said:
I believe the passage Beehive quoted came from this. The rest, he'll have to say.



However, there was a lot more to it than just those two points. Here is an article that, in my opinion, does a very good job of expounding on several of the many issues pertaining to the strike. It’s a long read, but if you really want a broader view of things, I feel it’s worth the time it will take.

CJ, Josh and my future drinking buddy (especially the latter two) seem to have struck a nerve with you. From my point of view, they are all three are essentially saying the same thing… and I will rephrase what I perceive them to be saying (secure in the knowledge that they will all promptly set me straight if I am off base) and that is…

You are seeking employment with an organization that has a long history of placing little or no value on its employees. Could not have been better said....drinks on me.

In 1981, no one I knew had a personal computer. We did not have the internet and we surely had no forums such as this. If we HAD had them… we very likely would have been telling those three the same things they are now telling you.
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There have been some people in this forum that have called on newbies to quit the hiring process so current controllers can get a deal done. I was calling those out who believe that by stating, not asking, they was in a relative situation when they were hired. It does not apply to all controllers, just the slim few that believe I am the reason for their lower salaries and I should stop the hiring process so they can get paid more.
When I read the posts about how applicants should give up, I wanted to state my opinion. I did it, there is no hate involved and there you have it.

Mind you, I have been warned to not call out on anyone personally so I won't write any names.

I do not know the fine print within the PATCO or NATCA proposal's. I searched the net for the info which I quoted. I wish to read up and educate myself on those issue's when I find the time.

I understand the FAA is not the greatest employer. I know some great controllers who have explained in detail how they're treated and what is expected of them.
 
I like the defeat and narrow-mindedness of the people who say "people should stop applying to be controllers, so then we can get a fair deal".

Do you really think that's the only way to advance change? Since, the chances of that actually happening are probably one in a million, you guys must be pretty miserable, and feel like there's nothing you can do. Pathetic.

Since the FAA, like an alcoholic, isn't going to change unless it hits rock bottom, or gets sucker punched by an intervention, maybe instead of bickering, we should be brainstorming ideas.

Since rock bottom in this case probably involves people dying, I'd rather not approach that subject entirely. I would however like to approach the intervention tactic. The FAA doesn't answer to NATCA, or the employees, or even the american public. They answer to Congress and the President.

Congress in this case is (can be) more powerful than the president. It is our job (people, controllers, general public, customers) to communicate to congress our complaints, fears, requests and demands.

Outside of lobbying(which has developed a weird stigma in congress lately) there are essentially 4 means of communicating with congress. Petitions, emails, phone calls and snail mail. Snail mail is by far the most effective, but most expensive. Petitions are heavy in workload with minimal impact. I've made this argument before but I want to take it to another level.

I am not the most capable person for this, but a website should be set up.
It should have the basic contact info for each member of congress. IF anyone knows how to set up an online petition that would be good, but we need to effectively communicate the complaints, the requests, and also the importance of taking this issue to task. It is also important to not come across as "whiney". NATCA has done that, and we see how well that's gone. Also, on this future website (one day?) there should be a form letter that essentially says the same thing that can be printed off and mailed to each congressman.

My point, is that congress takes up issues when there is pure volume. Since snail mail is physically a nuisance when there are thousands of letters that say the same thing, it is more effective. Lets do this, and work to fix the problem. The fact that this hasn't even been attempted since the contract was instituted absolutely blows my mind.

Kind of long winded, but that's my outline for what needs to be done to correct the contract issues. Flame away. :rawk:
 
I happened to be in the D.C. area last week, visiting family there and doing tourist stuff. I noticed a NATCA ad on the radio several times berating the FAA. Looks like the union is stepping up the volume, and taking their case to the public and the Congress.
 
Justin538 said:
I like the defeat and narrow-mindedness of the people who say "people should stop applying to be controllers, so then we can get a fair deal".

Since the FAA, like an alcoholic, isn't going to change unless it hits rock bottom, or gets sucker punched by an intervention, maybe instead of bickering, we should be brainstorming ideas.

The FAA doesn't answer to NATCA, or the employees, or even the american public. They answer to Congress and the President.

Kind of long winded, but that's my outline for what needs to be done to correct the contract issues. Flame away. :rawk:
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This is a great idea. I've e-mailed several congress members concerning this issue. We need the public to join us in this fight.
 
Justin538 said:
I like the defeat and narrow-mindedness of the people who say "people should stop applying to be controllers, so then we can get a fair deal".

Do you really think that's the only way to advance change? Since, the chances of that actually happening are probably one in a million, you guys must be pretty miserable, and feel like there's nothing you can do. Pathetic.

Since the FAA, like an alcoholic, isn't going to change unless it hits rock bottom, or gets sucker punched by an intervention, maybe instead of bickering, we should be brainstorming ideas.

Since rock bottom in this case probably involves people dying, I'd rather not approach that subject entirely. I would however like to approach the intervention tactic. The FAA doesn't answer to NATCA, or the employees, or even the american public. They answer to Congress and the President.

Congress in this case is (can be) more powerful than the president. It is our job (people, controllers, general public, customers) to communicate to congress our complaints, fears, requests and demands.

Outside of lobbying(which has developed a weird stigma in congress lately) there are essentially 4 means of communicating with congress. Petitions, emails, phone calls and snail mail. Snail mail is by far the most effective, but most expensive. Petitions are heavy in workload with minimal impact. I've made this argument before but I want to take it to another level.

I am not the most capable person for this, but a website should be set up.
It should have the basic contact info for each member of congress. IF anyone knows how to set up an online petition that would be good, but we need to effectively communicate the complaints, the requests, and also the importance of taking this issue to task. It is also important to not come across as "whiney". NATCA has done that, and we see how well that's gone. Also, on this future website (one day?) there should be a form letter that essentially says the same thing that can be printed off and mailed to each congressman.

My point, is that congress takes up issues when there is pure volume. Since snail mail is physically a nuisance when there are thousands of letters that say the same thing, it is more effective. Lets do this, and work to fix the problem. The fact that this hasn't even been attempted since the contract was instituted absolutely blows my mind.

Kind of long winded, but that's my outline for what needs to be done to correct the contract issues. Flame away. :rawk:
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I think this is a great idea also. I just don't know where to begin, and what to write/quote.
 
Step 1 - Get a domain or blog site set up. Once again 1-2-3-not it! I'm useless with this stuff.

Step 2 - Create a "letter to the editor" type of document, but it must be more in depth and portray a professional attitude. It should be like mailing your boss a memo (it kind of is....) It should be for petitions and mailings.

Step 2.5 - I'm really bootlegging this list. Create an actual letter to the editor, it doesn't hurt to tell the media that there might be a "movement" that they're missing.

Step three - Enlist the support of controllers, their blogs/websites (ie faafollies and the main bang.) If anything, Obama has shown us how important the internet can be.

Step Four - Mail away. How much is a book of stamps, 8 bucks? That can mail 20 letters. Sounds pretty cheap if it could lead to a 30% pay raise. (excuse me, reinstatement of lost pay bands).

Now, if we can get 50,000 online e- signatures, that's a big deal. If we can get 5000 people to mail out one book of stamps, that's literally 100,000 pieces of mail landing on the desks of people who can make a difference.

This is a no-brainer.

I'm putting this guy in my posts because He is the coolest smiley I've ever seen. :nana2:
 
You guys do know that NATCA offers an activist e-mail distribution list right?

Why re-invent the wheel.

NATCA is your lobbyist, and elected officials actually sit face to face with these individuals. Not some automated e-mail, or written letter. As much as we would like to believe that little notion. It doesn't happen as much as a NATCA representative is having a morning coffee with an elected official.
 
I understand that NATCA has "morning coffee with an elected official" but what would it hurt to do as much as possible? Everyone...GO! get to the NATCA website and get in on the distribution list...but if someone has the know-how and gumshun to start up another webiste, do it! Why not bombard Congress from all sides? Seriously, every little bit helps.
 
surreal1221 said:
You guys do know that NATCA offers an activist e-mail distribution list right?

Why re-invent the wheel.

NATCA is your lobbyist, and elected officials actually sit face to face with these individuals. Not some automated e-mail, or written letter. As much as we would like to believe that little notion. It doesn't happen as much as a NATCA representative is having a morning coffee with an elected official.
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This issue needs more than a lobbyist. It needs the public to scream. The general public did this last year and stopped George W Bush in his tracks on the immigration issue. I'm not sure if you realize how much power that actually takes, considering congress has yet to do it on their own.

This is not reinventing the wheel, this is suping up the engine and reinforcing the bumper, and plowing the car through the front door.
 
Then what you need to do, is tell EVERYONE you know, and making DAILY phone calls to your elected official's offices.

You are re-inventing the wheel, by proposing something that NATCA has already been doing for over two decades. Be it a phone tree, or e-mail distribution.

Sign up your family members. Encourage them to take an active part in protecting your profession by utilizing the NATCA system.

You, and them, make daily phone calls to your elected official's offices. That's not just federal either, include your state and local officials in your phone calls.

It takes dedication, but it can be done. Just don't re-invent the wheel please. I know exactly what the force of a majority can develop and cause. Don't you doubt that for a second.
 
surreal1221 said:
Then what you need to do, is tell EVERYONE you know, and making DAILY phone calls to your elected official's offices.

You are re-inventing the wheel, by proposing something that NATCA has already been doing for over two decades. Be it a phone tree, or e-mail distribution.

Sign up your family members. Encourage them to take an active part in protecting your profession by utilizing the NATCA system. I don't have 50,000 family members. I have 2, so I'm gonna shoot for a bigger audience

You, and them, make daily phone calls to your elected official's offices. That's not just federal either, include your state and local officials in your phone calls. I'm going to use my pen, it weilds more power

It takes dedication, but it can be done. Just don't re-invent the wheel please. This bothers me. Why not? What harm can having the general public beg congress to make a change do? I question your motive for saying that. I know exactly what the force of a majority can develop and cause. Don't you doubt that for a second.
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It is not reinventing the wheel. NATCA has tried to mobilize it's members and anyone who asks. It is not the union's responsibility to get everyone. I don't get your "the union will do it" attitude.

The people I want to get involved fly on a plane regularly for work. They've spent a night in a hotel in a strange city because their plane was delayed. Maybe they spent a few hours in the plane on the tarmac waiting to leave. They have relatives that fly regularly and worry about their safety.

Can't you see? I'm not talking about getting the pissed of controller to help out. We know they're pissed, congress knows they're pissed. I'm talking about getting the average traveller or tax payer who expects more out of their government. They are the one's who can make a difference.

Not reaching out to them because it would be "reinventing the wheel" (which by the way, this isn't an invention, it has been used for many things, most recently Barack Obama's campaign), would be by far the stupidest thing to do.

Unless you're not on the side of the controller.
 
Ah, I like your motive.

But do you not think that NATCA has already tried to get the public to view the present situation our way?

In the forms of spending LARGE sums of money, much more than you or any other individual with a website, blog, or smaller e-mail distribution list could ever imagine spending on a very strong PR campaign.

Trouble is, the flying public DOES NOT CARE about NATCA, or the FAA, or (honestly) the real elephant in the room (metal touching metal).

So, like I said, I like your enthusiasm, but leave the PR campaign to the people with the resource to dedicate. Partake though that medium, call your elected officials daily, and for the love of pete, tell everyone you know to also partake through the same medium used.

One other issue with trying to take this on in your own little world, or in a collective of little websites/blogs, is that then TWO different messages, potentially more, are making it into the legislative.

Which, believe it or not, does not do anything to help, but rather reduces the effectiveness of any mass message distribution. As then, the legislator (if he/she even bothers to read it, or is even handed the message from an intern / page) realizes, "wait a second, why am I getting three (insert number) different, not even in line with, statements about the same thing?" Next question they ask, is who the contact is for the profession that deals with whatever issue it is that is being written in about. Well, bingo. They are then notified that NATCA is the applicable labor association for the controller workforce.

Now of course, a further negative ramification of this is that it may appear that some are trying to degrade or reduce NATCA's strength. We wouldn't want anyone to get the idea that NATCA is a weak association, as it is very much not that. We also wouldn't want anyone to get the idea that NATCA needs to be removed. One must thread lightly in that regard.

Stick with the people who have a history of performing these things, and then follow up with the individual activist tactics that must be utilized to drive an effective campaign.

NATCA is a very valuable resource, and an extremely effective medium for change. Trouble is, we don't have the right elected officials in office to implement the changes we (NATCA) and the AFL-CIO are suggesting.

Give it time.
 
surreal1221 said:
Ah, I like your motive.

But do you not think that NATCA has already tried to get the public to view the present situation our way?

In the forms of spending LARGE sums of money, much more than you or any other individual with a website, blog, or smaller e-mail distribution list could ever imagine spending on a very strong PR campaign.

Trouble is, the flying public DOES NOT CARE about NATCA, or the FAA, or (honestly) the real elephant in the room (metal touching metal).

So, like I said, I like your enthusiasm, but leave the PR campaign to the people with the resource to dedicate. Partake though that medium, call your elected officials daily, and for the love of pete, tell everyone you know to also partake through the same medium used.

One other issue with trying to take this on in your own little world, or in a collective of little websites/blogs, is that then TWO different messages, potentially more, are making it into the legislative.

Which, believe it or not, does not do anything to help, but rather reduces the effectiveness of any mass message distribution. As then, the legislator (if he/she even bothers to read it, or is even handed the message from an intern / page) realizes, "wait a second, why am I getting three (insert number) different, not even in line with, statements about the same thing?" Next question they ask, is who the contact is for the profession that deals with whatever issue it is that is being written in about. Well, bingo. They are then notified that NATCA is the applicable labor association for the controller workforce.

Now of course, a further negative ramification of this is that it may appear that some are trying to degrade or reduce NATCA's strength. We wouldn't want anyone to get the idea that NATCA is a weak association, as it is very much not that. We also wouldn't want anyone to get the idea that NATCA needs to be removed. One must thread lightly in that regard.

Stick with the people who have a history of performing these things, and then follow up with the individual activist tactics that must be utilized to drive an effective campaign.

NATCA is a very valuable resource, and an extremely effective medium for change. Trouble is, we don't have the right elected officials in office to implement the changes we (NATCA) and the AFL-CIO are suggesting.

Give it time.
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By far the dumbest thing I've heard all day, and it's 11pm here.


Starting an online campaign from the FAA's customers to renegotiate with air traffic controllers diminishes from NATCA's cause? Are you high?

The only reason I could assume that you don't agree with starting something outside of NATCA is either A. You're against controllers, or B. You're a pilot, and the resolution of this means there's a greater chance it would cost you more money to use their services.

Trying to talk people out of petitioning their government is practically a crime. Or it should be. I would use stronger language, but I'm assuming cursing isn't allowed on this message board, so I will refrain. I will however disagree with you as fiercely as possible about this.

I was going to highlight the parts of that post that I thought were ludicrous but I disagree with everything, and not just a little bit. I hold your post as an example of the exactly wrong attitude to have.
 
Use stronger language.

One, you have some searching of my historical posts here at JC, specifically in the ATC forums, to figure out what my real history is.

Two, you can say all these things that you'd like to do until you're blue in your face. Trouble is, the things you are talking about - are not effective means of directing change at the legislative branch.

Three, I'm telling you this because I know from my own experience. I've attempted to do just the things you recommended.

Four, I'm also telling you the things that I'm telling you because I have a background in trade unionism, communications, public relations, and internet distribution lists.

But obviously you know much more than me.

Good luck though. Let me know how your little campaign works out. I'd like to know what results you have netted in 6, 12, and 18 months. If you make it that far.
 
surreal1221 said:
Use stronger language.

One, you have some searching of my historical posts here at JC, specifically in the ATC forums, to figure out what my real history is. I don't really care

Two, you can say all these things that you'd like to do until you're blue in your face. Trouble is, the things you are talking about - are not effective means of directing change at the legislative branch. Yes they are.

Three, I'm telling you this because I know from my own experience. I've attempted to do just the things you recommended. Your failures won't dictate mine. You must have quite the ego. "If I can't do it, or anything, nobody can!"

Four, I'm also telling you the things that I'm telling you because I have a background in trade unionism, communications, public relations, and internet distribution lists. Don't know how lists really matter.

But obviously you know much more than me.

Good luck though. Let me know how your little campaign works out. I'd like to know what results you have netted in 6, 12, and 18 months. If you make it that far. It will probably be in your local newspaper.
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The world needs a few more of you.

Honestly, if the controllers have been fighting this since '06 and nothing has happened other than having everything shoved down their throat, it would be a horrible idea to ask for the help of the general public. Your pessimism is what's wrong with the world. I bet you tell people not to vote. "you'll never beat Karl Rove, so don't even try".

So, I'm done with you, but when you have to pay higher user fees because we got something done, it will be your fault you didn't stand up for your side of the issue.:nana2:
 
sorry dude but sureal is correct on this , no one will give a ##### untill some one DIES (and it dosnt take a mid air , just think what a 30lb drink cart can do if it lands on some ones head after a negative G TCAS event)
 
queeno said:
sorry dude but sureal is correct on this , no one will give a ##### untill some one DIES (and it dosnt take a mid air , just think what a 30lb drink cart can do if it lands on some ones head after a negative G TCAS event)
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Ok, looks like I'm on my own. You guys are the most uninspired people I've ever met.

This will be the last post from me here.

Good Luck to everybody in the hiring process
 
Justin538 said:
Ok, looks like I'm on my own. You guys are the most uninspired people I've ever met.

This will be the last post from me here.

Good Luck to everybody in the hiring process
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Peace Out.

But if you do return.

First you say the world needs a few more of me, all after never providing any sort of honest feedback to the discussion.

I had hoped that it was obviously clear to you that many of us here are strong trade unionist, and advocate the use of NATCA's strength of many over another attempt by a group of few.

You took that to mean don't do it. Do it, knock yourself out.

But the issue is that your results will be small compared to the daily progress made by NATCA.

NATCA hasn't been doing this only since 2006 either. Which goes to inficate how little experience you hold when it comes to your campaign. Some NATCA, AFL CIO, and FAA research on your part is due. Going all the way back to Bush v.1.0.

But anyway. . .peace out, and please recognize the strength that NATCA holds for the future of the profession.

The uninspired NATCA members are fighting everyday to improve the profession, so I would actually consider
them all to be pretty damn inspired.
 
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