Theives vs Newbies

Beehive said:
When did this forum become the military or FAA? When did applicants have to impress people in this forum to be considered for FAA employment?
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Because you never know who could be your trainer/supervisor/etc. My dad informed me this morning that a center just fired 2 trainees. One was for leave abuse and the other was because the kid was an ass.

Your first year they can fire you for whatever reason they want. And i'm willing to bet some of the veterans aren't willing to put up with new hires BS.

ATC is one of those jobs where you are completely worthless until you are rated. Expect to be treated as though you are worthless because until you are rated...you don't mean a damn thing to anyone. Just a heads up bro.
 
Is it just my impression or I'm seeing too many negative posts about the ATC jobs lately? :)
What's cooking in the ATC world? Should I be worried about it while I'm trying to chase that needle down the glideslope? :D
 
tilli5285 said:
ATLTRACON, have you worked at any other facilities, tower or enroute maybe to compare the three?? Boston ARTCC, BOS TRACON, CLT Tower/TRACON, ATL Tower/TRACON. I'm just trying to get an idea what to expect if I do in fact end up at N90 instead of the level 8 up/down I was hoping for. Putting the IWR/pay aside, do you like your job?? YES What is large TRACON work like?? 2 to 2.5 hours on position, very little down time, extremely busy, but good people.What is the training environment like?? Large TRACON's in general are not set up to train people who have never controlled traffic (including military and non-FFA towers. ARTCC's do a much better job as do medium size TRACONs/towers.Do you have any advice for a nubee who is not going to decline the offer?? Be humble, study the 7110.65 like it was going out of style and by all means keep your mouth shut. Respect everyone. We have WAAAAY to many newbies who come in and think they are the biggest thing since sliced bread and vocally say so.Some of the ATM's I was talking to yesterday at the PEPC gave me a wide eyed look :panic:when I told them where I was headed. I actually started a debate between two atm's about starting people at a high level facility. One guy was the manager of a lvl 6 but worked at a 10 earlier in his careers and one worked at a lvl 8 but started at a lvl 12 center. Those who can't .. manage. You'll do fine. Just study the .65 hard. Remember good phraseology will get you out of A LOT of jams. Crappy phraseology will get you in those situations.The lvl6 guy felt that a trainee should start at a low/intermediate fac and work up to a high. The lvl8 dude thought that starting someone at a high lvl fac was a great idea bc they won't have any bad habits picked up while at a low lvl facility. I was just wondering your take on the whole situation. If you get a chance to respond I would greatly appreciate it.
thank you
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Beehive said:
"Don't know where you get your information, but it has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with dislike for anyone. Why would I, or anyone else, dislike anyone who is coming in to maybe help get me of the frickin OT (for anyone counting 60 weeks in a row) 'Course ya gotta wonder why ANYONE would want to come into the FFA under these conditions?" -ATLTRACON
I was directing my opinion to current controllers that are about to retire yet dislike current applicants for whatever reason(s). I do not classify you sir as one of those. Your kid is about to take the ATSAT so I don't see you having an issue with newbies.
You sir have been the best source of information in this forum regarding current conditions within the FAA.
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Beehive,
I still stand by my comments, but maybe I didn't vocalize it well. I do not know of any controller, staying or retiring, that has any dislike for new applicants/hires.

CJ
 
surreal1221 said:
I have an association with NATCA, and have been well before the previous contract negotiations. I send money, on my own, through that membership to help bring controllers the work rules and compensation that they deserve.

On that regard, anyone who considers themselves a trade unionist, should be supporting one of the largest unions for government employees. Not that they have to follow my direction, but at least support the organization for the people behind it.
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BRAVO
 
skidz said:
Is it just my impression or I'm seeing too many negative posts about the ATC jobs lately? :)
What's cooking in the ATC world? Should I be worried about it while I'm trying to chase that needle down the glideslope? :D
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Most definitely. 10 hour days, 6 days a week and exactly 8 hours off between shifts. No more 2 hours on position and you get a break for 20 min., now it might be 2.5 or more. 8 hour shift the other day and I was on position for 7+40. Maybe easier at a lower facility (still outrageous) but not at ATL TRACON.

Be afraid...Be very afraid.
 
ATLTRACON said:
Beehive,
I still stand by my comments, but maybe I didn't vocalize it well. I do not know of any controller, staying or retiring, that has any dislike for new applicants/hires.

CJ
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With all do respect I guess my topic does not apply to you. It applies to current controllers that are about to retire yet dislike current applicants for whatever reason(s).
 
Now have you seen consistent evidence of this or is it based upon a bad experience or two?
 
Beehive said:
With all do respect I guess my topic does not apply to you. It applies to current controllers that are about to retire yet dislike current applicants for whatever reason(s).
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AND again I say, I know of NONE, staying or about to RETIRE, that has a problem with the new hires. It's all about busting your ass and studying hard. the problem is with the newest generation is that they show up today and expect to be checked out tomorrow, know EVERYTHING and have very little lack of respect for professionals that have been doing this for 20+ years at The Big Show (ATL). I don't care whether you're blue, green, black or purple, do the job, have some respect and you'll get along fine with all. Staying AND RETIRING.
 
ATLTRACON said:
the problem is with the newest generation is that they show up today and expect to be checked out tomorrow, know EVERYTHING and have very little lack of respect for professionals that have been doing this for 20+ years
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That's your answer Beehive. I don't even have to work in the FAA. Just being a military controller is enough to know that this is the reason veteran controllers have a so-called "dislike" for new hires.
 
What is being said above, can be said of nearly every work environment.

Difference is.

Only one work environment deals with aluminum tubes zooming through the air with 2 or even 500 people inside of them.

But they don't want to think about that now do they. Getting paid the "big bucks" as compared from their previous short-term jobs.
 
ATLTRACON said:
AND again I say, I know of NONE, staying or about to RETIRE, that has a problem with the new hires. That was a great answer to my question...sorry for the misunderstanding. It's all about busting your ass and studying hard. the problem is with the newest generation is that they show up today and expect to be checked out tomorrow, know EVERYTHING and have very little lack of respect for professionals that have been doing this for 20+ years at The Big Show (ATL). I don't care whether you're blue, green, black or purple, do the job, have some respect and you'll get along fine with all. Staying AND RETIRING.
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Thanks for posting your experiences of controlling on this forum for newbies such as myself to read and learn from.

Here is what some people on jetcareers forums have had to write about applicants-

So all applicants should bow out of the process and call it quits?

"yes thats what iam saying, if you people keep signing up for the substandard pay and working conditions, the FAA will just come out and say, HAY look at all the people applying for the job it must be good,and nothing will change.you will have nothing to complain about because you signed up for this.hay but dont belive me you will see quick enough."

So all applicants should bow out of the process and call it quits?
Yes.

"Yes, because if we finally get through to some of you guys and the supply of willing robots the FAA wants declines, they'll have to get back to the table and actually NEGOTIATE a professional contract."
 
Beehive said:
"Yes, because if we finally get through to some of you guys and the supply of willing robots the FAA wants declines, they'll have to get back to the table and actually NEGOTIATE a professional contract."
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That one there is mine.

I stand by that statement, and will continue to stand by it. Sorry it ruffles your feathers.
 
Beehive said:
It applies to current controllers that are about to retire yet dislike current applicants for whatever reason(s).
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I'm curious ... what do you base this on ? Were you a trainee who failed or was treated badly ? I have worked at one facility my whole career but can tell you I don't see the dislike you describe and my building has close to 200 controllers. I'm not trying to call you out... it's just that you made a statement that I really have not observed.

Also ... where did you get your PATCO info from ??? I came in well after PATCO but worked with quite a few people who went through the strike, both as management and as controllers. Sitting and talking to these people about the strike is a very interesting experience and they tell quite a more complex story then your statement.
 
Fox Xray said:
Also ... where did you get your PATCO info from ???
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I believe the passage Beehive quoted came from this. The rest, he'll have to say.

Beehive said:
I understand the basics about the 80's strike. They wanted a 4/32 work week and higher pay.
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However, there was a lot more to it than just those two points. Here is an article that, in my opinion, does a very good job of expounding on several of the many issues pertaining to the strike. It’s a long read, but if you really want a broader view of things, I feel it’s worth the time it will take.

CJ, Josh and my future drinking buddy (especially the latter two) seem to have struck a nerve with you. From my point of view, they are all three are essentially saying the same thing… and I will rephrase what I perceive them to be saying (secure in the knowledge that they will all promptly set me straight if I am off base) and that is…

You are seeking employment with an organization that has a long history of placing little or no value on its employees.

In 1981, no one I knew had a personal computer. We did not have the internet and we surely had no forums such as this. If we HAD had them… we very likely would have been telling those three the same things they are now telling you.
 
Beehive said:
Thanks for posting your experiences of controlling on this forum for newbies such as myself to read and learn from.

Here is what some people on jetcareers forums have had to write about applicants-

So all applicants should bow out of the process and call it quits?

"yes thats what iam saying, if you people keep signing up for the substandard pay and working conditions, the FAA will just come out and say, HAY look at all the people applying for the job it must be good,and nothing will change.you will have nothing to complain about because you signed up for this.hay but dont belive me you will see quick enough."
Above statement is true/factual. The FFA will spin even an air crash to their benefit.

So all applicants should bow out of the process and call it quits?
Yes.

"Yes, because if we finally get through to some of you guys and the supply of willing robots the FAA wants declines, they'll have to get back to the table and actually NEGOTIATE a professional contract."
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