the third problem

jynxyjoe · Sep 29, 2009

intern_mike said:
With the cost of training so astronomically high, and the unwillingness of banks to lend for said training, where will the new generation come from? When I left FSA in August there was a 97 person waiting list, all on hold because lenders no longer finance flight training. Now, I know that FSA is one of the most expensive flight schools, however, it's not unrealistic to expect flight training to cost at least 60k anywhere. Your thoughts?

Problem:
1. H.R. 3371 (unrealistically high minimums for the pay)
2. Age 65 guys leaving in a couple of years leaving empty seats at the regionals.
3. see above

And

Giggity said:
Just last year the regionals were hiring guys with 280 hours total time and the majors calling back pilots with DUI's not a shortage? The average age of a 121 pilot is 58 years old and flight schools right now are all hurting for students. I am just going to take a guess that after everyone catches up to the 65 year rule "2012" and lack of new students their just might be a shortage

Mike and Giggity, I'm sorry if these weren't the replies you were looking for, or the attitudes. I've been hearing about this pilot shortage since college 10 years ago. Some people believe in it, others don't. I agree pilot hiring's come in waves and sometimes they are really large.

Anyway, best of luck to all of us.

jynxyjoe · Sep 29, 2009

Oh! Air Taxi Service. Been hearing about that since before college.

Sub-Million dollar biz jets.

bdhill1979 · Sep 29, 2009

jynxyjoe said:
Yeah. Stop using those.

Make way for the pilot shortage and wild optimism. Someone just get me a shiny jet to fly!

Sorry man, its a compulsion, I should see a specialist

29.92inHg · Sep 29, 2009

bdhill1979 said:
Grand Total : 99,969

Thats just freakin depressing. Did you have to add the total

I'm glad i have my good CFI job, and also as a side comment from the pricing conversation above, and the poverty level CFI, The CFI probably isn't making a lot of that $40 an hour.

Inverted25 · Sep 29, 2009

I would like to point out the fact that there is quite a few commercially rated pilots that never have any intention of flying for a living. They just do it for the hell of it. We have had 5 guys in their 50 get it just because they didnt feel like just doing a BFR this year so they got their commcial license. So just because they are employable doesnt mean they are looking. And how many of those pilots you listed are in there 50s and 60s and no longer fly for a living? Those numbers dont accuratley represent the pool of canidiates that are actively looking or flying for a living. Not saying there will ever be a overall shortage but in certain areas there may be.

Matt13C · Sep 29, 2009

29.92inHg said:
Thats just freakin depressing. Did you have to add the total

I'm glad i have my good CFI job, and also as a side comment from the pricing conversation above, and the poverty level CFI, The CFI probably isn't making a lot of that $40 an hour.

No idea, hopefully he is making a good amount of it though. I hope to work there after I get my CFI and would like to not be in poverty. I know it can be much worse though.

Giggity · Sep 29, 2009

bdhill1979 said:
You did not answer my question, which Major airline was recalling DUIs?

What does Utah and Skywest have to do with anything? Nationwide there are far more qualified pilots than there are jobs. According to the FAA as of 2008 there are 124,746 commercial pilots, and 146, 838 Airline Transport Pilots, making a total of 271,584 employable pilots in the US. According to Airline Pilot Central there are 99,696 US based jobs. Granted that is not a full accounting of Corporate, Flight instructing, air ag, etc..... but that is a VERY LARGE portion of the total jobs in this country.

Edit to add: I took the number of total pilots, not the active, so there are thousands on furlough already, adding to the EXCESS of pilots versus jobs available.

<TABLE style="WIDTH: 143pt; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=190 x:str=""><COLGROUP><COL style="WIDTH: 95pt" width=126><COL style="WIDTH: 48pt" width=64><TBODY><TR style="HEIGHT: 18pt" height=24><TD style="WIDTH: 143pt; HEIGHT: 18pt" class=xl26 height=24 width=190 colSpan=2>Legacy</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Alaska</TD><TD class=xl24 align=right x:num="1455">1,455</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>American</TD><TD class=xl24 align=right x:num="11166">11,166</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Continental</TD><TD class=xl24 align=right x:num="4867">4,867</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Delta</TD><TD class=xl25 x:num="12299">12,299</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Hawiian</TD><TD align=right x:num="">404</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Northwest</TD><TD class=xl24 align=right x:num="5156">5,156</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>United</TD><TD class=xl24 align=right x:num="6478">6,478</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>US Airways</TD><TD class=xl24 align=right x:num="5275">5,275</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>

</TD><TD>

</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Total</TD><TD class=xl24 align=right x:num="47100" x:fmla="=SUM(B2:B9)">47,100</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>

</TD><TD>

</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 18pt" height=24><TD style="HEIGHT: 18pt" class=xl26 height=24 colSpan=2>Major-National-LCC</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Air Tran</TD><TD class=xl24 align=right x:num="1632">1,632</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Allegiant</TD><TD align=right x:num="">281</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Aloha</TD><TD align=right x:num="">34</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>American Eagle</TD><TD class=xl24 align=right x:num="2725">2,725</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>ASA</TD><TD align=right x:num="">1695</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Comair</TD><TD class=xl24 align=right x:num="1476">1,476</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Express Jet</TD><TD class=xl24 align=right x:num="2725">2,725</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Frontier</TD><TD align=right x:num="">718</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Jet Blue</TD><TD class=xl24 align=right x:num="2006">2,006</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Mesa</TD><TD class=xl24 align=right x:num="1446">1,446</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Midwest</TD><TD align=right x:num="">390</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Republic</TD><TD class=xl24 align=right x:num="2069">2,069</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Skywest</TD><TD class=xl24 align=right x:num="2809">2,809</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Southwest</TD><TD class=xl24 align=right x:num="5915">5,915</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Spirit</TD><TD align=right x:num="">519</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Sun Country</TD><TD align=right x:num="">156</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17 x:str="USA 3000 ">USA 3000 </TD><TD align=right x:num="">129</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Virgin America</TD><TD align=right x:num="">327</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>

</TD><TD>

</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17 x:str="Total ">Total </TD><TD class=xl24 align=right x:num="27052" x:fmla="=SUM(B14:B31)">27,052</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>

</TD><TD>

</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 18pt" height=24><TD style="HEIGHT: 18pt" class=xl27 height=24>CARGO</TD><TD>

</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>

</TD><TD>

</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>ABX air</TD><TD align=right x:num="">630</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>AirNet</TD><TD align=right x:num="">148</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Ameriflight</TD><TD align=right x:num="">200</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Amerijet</TD><TD align=right x:num="">57</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Arrow</TD><TD align=right x:num="">120</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Astar</TD><TD align=right x:num="">503</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>ATI</TD><TD align=right x:num="">150</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Atlas</TD><TD align=right x:num="">630</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Capital</TD><TD align=right x:num="">105</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Centurion</TD><TD align=right x:num="">69</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Empire</TD><TD align=right x:num="">102</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Evergreen</TD><TD align=right x:num="">225</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>FedEx</TD><TD class=xl24 align=right x:num="4678">4,678</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Flight Express</TD><TD align=right x:num="">37</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Kalitta</TD><TD align=right x:num="">360</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Kalitta Charters</TD><TD align=right x:num="">35</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Lynden</TD><TD align=right x:num="">80</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Mountain Air Cargo</TD><TD align=right x:num="">120</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>National</TD><TD align=right x:num="">34</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Polar</TD><TD align=right x:num="">360</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Southern Air</TD><TD align=right x:num="">265</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Tradewinds</TD><TD align=right x:num="">115</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>UPS</TD><TD class=xl24 align=right x:num="2908">2,908</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>

</TD><TD>

</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Total</TD><TD align=right x:num="" x:fmla="=SUM(B37:B59)">11931</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>

</TD><TD>

</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 18pt" height=24><TD style="HEIGHT: 18pt" class=xl28 height=24 colSpan=2>REGIONAL</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Air Wisconsin</TD><TD align=right x:num="">716</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Cape Air</TD><TD align=right x:num="">188</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Colgan Air</TD><TD align=right x:num="">435</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Commut Air</TD><TD align=right x:num="">130</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Compass</TD><TD align=right x:num="">365</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Era</TD><TD align=right x:num="">58</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Go Jet</TD><TD align=right x:num="">250</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Great Lakes</TD><TD align=right x:num="">335</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Gulfstream</TD><TD align=right x:num="">260</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Horizon Air</TD><TD align=right x:num="">721</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Island Air</TD><TD align=right x:num="">64</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Lynx</TD><TD align=right x:num="">104</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Mesaba</TD><TD class=xl24 align=right x:num="1169">1,169</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Pen Air</TD><TD align=right x:num="">120</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Piedmont</TD><TD align=right x:num="">477</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Pinnacle</TD><TD class=xl24 align=right x:num="1303">1,303</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>PSA</TD><TD align=right x:num="">520</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Trans States</TD><TD align=right x:num="">446</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>

</TD><TD>

</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17 x:str="Total ">Total </TD><TD align=right x:num="" x:fmla="=SUM(B64:B81)">7661</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>

</TD><TD>

</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 18pt" height=24><TD style="HEIGHT: 18pt" class=xl28 height=24 colSpan=2>FRACTIONAL</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Avantair</TD><TD align=right x:num="">234</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Citation Shares</TD><TD align=right x:num="">410</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Flex Jet</TD><TD align=right x:num="">460</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Flight Options</TD><TD align=right x:num="">534</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>NetJets</TD><TD class=xl24 align=right x:num="2943">2,943</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Planesense</TD><TD align=right x:num="">105</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>XO Jet</TD><TD align=right x:num="">100</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>

</TD><TD>

</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Total</TD><TD align=right x:num="" x:fmla="=SUM(B86:B92)">4786</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>

</TD><TD>

</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 18pt" height=24><TD style="HEIGHT: 18pt" class=xl28 height=24 colSpan=2>CHARTER</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>

</TD><TD>

</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Key Lime Air</TD><TD align=right x:num="">31</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Miami Air</TD><TD align=right x:num="">99</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>North American</TD><TD align=right x:num="">190</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Omni Air</TD><TD align=right x:num="">245</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Ryan International</TD><TD align=right x:num="">145</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>World</TD><TD align=right x:num="">525</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Xtra</TD><TD align=right x:num="">31</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>

</TD><TD>

</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Total</TD><TD align=right x:num="" x:fmla="=SUM(B98:B104)">1266</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>

</TD><TD>

</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 18pt" height=24><TD style="HEIGHT: 18pt" class=xl28 height=24 colSpan=2>PART 135</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Air Cargo Carriers</TD><TD align=right x:num="">70</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Kalitta Charters</TD><TD align=right x:num="">51</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Kenmore Air</TD><TD align=right x:num="">52</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>

</TD><TD>

</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>Total</TD><TD align=right x:num="" x:fmla="=SUM(B109:B111)">173</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>

</TD><TD>

</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>

</TD><TD>

</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>

</TD><TD>

</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>

</TD><TD>

</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17 x:str="Grand Total ">Grand Total </TD><TD class=xl24 align=right x:num="99969" x:fmla="=SUM(B113,B106,B94,B83,B61,B33,B11)">99,969</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<LINK rel=File-List href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CBen%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C04%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><STYLE>  </STYLE>P.S.: You are contradicting yourself in saying "More pilots than jobs". Is that not the definition of no shortage?

P.P.S.: I am in that "Non-existent Corp Gig", have been for over two years now.

:clap:You havent taken into account all the GA guys that only get their commercial just to lower their insurance. Also retired pilots that fly for shi & giggles who happen to have their ATP. Your charts list the word "estimated". There is no way the FAA can keep track of every current pilot. Basically its a list of every person with a commercial or atp thats still alive. That includes guys that are over 65, retired, sick of aviation and moved on, washed out aviation college students, current professional aviatiors, pilots that cant pass their medical ect.. I also forgot about the thousands of foreign students that train in the US of A. Also the little >estimate< that 50% of all furloughed pilots are not coming back. Then the >fact< that there will be thousands of pilots retireing by 2023. visual reference- walk in any airport and just watch for the white hairs.

Debbie Downer you need to have a positive attitude. I am friends with a couple of your old flight instructor buddies who specifically told me to give you crap.. FYI- You should really try another state because Utah is the bottomless pit of corporate gigs. Hows KPVU these days with students? I know of a couple people "including a friend" who got hired with a DUI back in short lived hiring boom. So I am not going to anounce that over the forums.

smig · Sep 30, 2009

Giggity said:
Just last year the regionals were hiring guys with 280 hours total time and the majors calling back pilots with DUI's not a shortage?

That is not a pilot shortage. That is a shortage of pilots willing to do the job for what those regionals were paying.

If the regionals had a starting pay of $60,000, they wouldn't have to hire 280 hour pilots.

bdhill1979 · Sep 30, 2009

Giggity said:
:clap:

That took a whole 10 minutes of cut and paste, to show WITH FACTS that the heavily marketed "Pilot Shortage" is a scam.

Giggity said:
You havent taken into account all the GA guys that only get their commercial just to lower their insurance. Also retired pilots that fly for shi & giggles who happen to have their ATP.

Actually I did:

bdhill1979 said:
Granted that is not a full accounting of Corporate, Flight instructing, air ag, etc..... but that is a VERY LARGE portion of the total jobs in this country.

99,969/271,584 = only 36%, are you going to say that a full 64% of the total employable pilots in this country are not competing for jobs? Please provide something other than your opinion to back that up.

Giggity said:
Your charts list the word "estimated". There is no way the FAA can keep track of every current pilot. Basically its a list of every person with a commercial or atp thats still alive. That includes guys that are over 65, retired, sick of aviation and moved on, washed out aviation college students, current professional aviatiors, pilots that cant pass their medical ect......Then the >fact< that there will be thousands of pilots retireing by 2023. visual reference- walk in any airport and just watch for the white hairs.

the charts also say ACTIVE, right after ESTIMATED; I agree the FAA is not perfect in keeping track of these things, but if you can suggest a more accurate source than the agency that issues the certificates I will gladly accept it. No I don't do the whole "visual reference" thing to base my opinions, I use facts, from the same source already cited:

<table x:str="" style="border-collapse: collapse; width: 176pt;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="234"><col style="width: 58pt;" width="77"> <col style="width: 60pt;" width="80"> <col style="width: 58pt;" width="77"> <tbody><tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl28" style="height: 12.75pt; width: 58pt;" width="77" height="17">Total</td> <td class="xl29" style="border-left: medium none; width: 60pt;" x:num="139489" align="right" width="80">139,489 </td> <td class="xl29" style="border-left: medium none; width: 58pt;" x:num="149705" align="right" width="77">149,705 </td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl30" style="border-top: medium none; height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Age Group</td> <td class="xl30" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:str="Commercial ">Commercial </td> <td class="xl30" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;">ATP</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl33" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">14-15</td> <td class="xl27" style="border-left: medium none;" x:num="0" align="right">0 </td> <td class="xl27" style="border-left: medium none;" x:num="0" align="right">0 </td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl31" style="border-top: medium none; height: 12.75pt;" height="17">16-19</td> <td class="xl32" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="561" align="right">561 </td> <td class="xl32" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0" align="right">0 </td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl31" style="border-top: medium none; height: 12.75pt;" height="17">20-24</td> <td class="xl32" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="11674" align="right">11,674 </td> <td class="xl32" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="196" align="right">196 </td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl31" style="border-top: medium none; height: 12.75pt;" height="17">25-29</td> <td class="xl32" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="20626" align="right">20,626 </td> <td class="xl32" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="4463" align="right">4,463 </td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl31" style="border-top: medium none; height: 12.75pt;" height="17">30-34</td> <td class="xl32" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="14157" align="right">14,157 </td> <td class="xl32" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="10749" align="right">10,749 </td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl31" style="border-top: medium none; height: 12.75pt;" height="17">35-39</td> <td class="xl32" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="13130" align="right">13,130 </td> <td class="xl32" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="17679" align="right">17,679 </td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl31" style="border-top: medium none; height: 12.75pt;" height="17">40-44</td> <td class="xl32" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="11893" align="right">11,893 </td> <td class="xl32" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="23414" align="right">23,414 </td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl31" style="border-top: medium none; height: 12.75pt;" height="17">45-49</td> <td class="xl32" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="11297" align="right">11,297 </td> <td class="xl32" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="25828" align="right">25,828 </td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl31" style="border-top: medium none; height: 12.75pt;" height="17">50-54</td> <td class="xl32" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="12440" align="right">12,440 </td> <td class="xl32" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="23583" align="right">23,583 </td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl31" style="border-top: medium none; height: 12.75pt;" height="17">55-59</td> <td class="xl32" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="12486" align="right">12,486 </td> <td class="xl32" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="18191" align="right">18,191 </td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl31" style="border-top: medium none; height: 12.75pt;" height="17">60-64</td> <td class="xl32" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="13183" align="right">13,183 </td> <td class="xl32" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="14434" align="right">14,434 </td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl31" style="border-top: medium none; height: 12.75pt;" height="17">65-69</td> <td class="xl32" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="9282" align="right">9,282 </td> <td class="xl32" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="6743" align="right">6,743 </td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl31" style="border-top: medium none; height: 12.75pt;" height="17">70-74</td> <td class="xl32" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="4543" align="right">4,543 </td> <td class="xl32" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="2699" align="right">2,699 </td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl31" style="border-top: medium none; height: 12.75pt;" height="17">75-79</td> <td class="xl32" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="2644" align="right">2,644 </td> <td class="xl32" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="1157" align="right">1,157 </td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl31" style="border-top: medium none; height: 12.75pt;" height="17">80 and over</td> <td class="xl32" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="1573" align="right">1,573 </td> <td class="xl32" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="569" align="right">569 </td> </tr> </tbody></table>
While the numbers do show a high number approaching that "Age 65", only about 9% of ATPs and Commercial pilots fall into the 60-64 bracket. Those retiring by 2023 like you say is everyone between the age 50-54 bracket up to age 65, those total 56,208 ATPs and 38,109 Commercial Pilots or a total of 34% of the total number of Active employable pilots in the US.

That may sound high, but....Student pilot certificates issued:

<table x:str="" style="border-collapse: collapse; width: 209pt;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="278"><col style="width: 135pt;" width="180"> <col style="width: 37pt;" span="2" width="49"> <tbody><tr style="height: 16.5pt;" height="22"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 16.5pt; width: 135pt;" width="180" height="22"> YEAR</td> <td class="xl25" style="width: 37pt;" x:num="" width="49">2008</td> <td class="xl25" style="border-left: medium none; width: 37pt;" x:num="" width="49">2007</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl26" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> Total</td> <td class="xl27" x:num="61194" x:fmla="=SUM(B3:B14)" align="right">61,194</td> <td class="xl27" x:num="66953" x:fmla="=SUM(C3:C14)" align="right"> 66,953</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl28" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> January</td> <td class="xl29" x:num="5628" align="right">5,628</td> <td class="xl29" style="border-left: medium none;" x:num="5343" align="right">5,343</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl28" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> February</td> <td class="xl29" x:num="4752" align="right">4,752</td> <td class="xl29" style="border-left: medium none;" x:num="4701" align="right">4,701</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl28" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> March</td> <td class="xl29" x:num="4944" align="right">4,944</td> <td class="xl29" style="border-left: medium none;" x:num="5523" align="right">5,523</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl28" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> April</td> <td class="xl29" x:num="5061" align="right">5,061</td> <td class="xl29" style="border-left: medium none;" x:num="5162" align="right">5,162</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl28" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> May</td> <td class="xl29" x:num="5363" align="right">5,363</td> <td class="xl29" style="border-left: medium none;" x:num="6094" align="right">6,094</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl28" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> June</td> <td class="xl29" x:num="5956" align="right">5,956</td> <td class="xl29" style="border-left: medium none;" x:num="6401" align="right">6,401</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl30" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> July</td> <td class="xl29" x:num="6265" align="right">6,265</td> <td class="xl29" style="border-left: medium none;" x:num="6525" align="right">6,525</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl30" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> August</td> <td class="xl29" x:num="6127" align="right">6,127</td> <td class="xl29" style="border-left: medium none;" x:num="7541" align="right">7,541</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl30" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> September</td> <td class="xl29" x:num="5163" align="right">5,163</td> <td class="xl29" style="border-left: medium none;" x:num="5795" align="right">5,795</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl30" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> October</td> <td class="xl29" x:num="4977" align="right">4,977</td> <td class="xl29" style="border-left: medium none;" x:num="5473" align="right">5,473</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl30" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> November</td> <td class="xl29" x:num="3554" align="right">3,554</td> <td class="xl29" style="border-left: medium none;" x:num="4583" align="right">4,583</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl31" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> December</td> <td class="xl32" x:num="3404" align="right">3,404</td> <td class="xl32" style="border-left: medium none;" x:num="3812" align="right">3,812</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
the void is already well on its way to being filled, those numbers show no decrease in student pilot certificates issued compared with the last 10 years; though that excludes 2009s data which will show some decrease over previous years, but it certainly has not died entirely.

Giggity said:
I also forgot about the thousands of foreign students that train in the US of A.

thousands does not mount up to hundreds of thousands

Giggity said:
Also the little >estimate< that 50% of all furloughed pilots are not coming back.

source?

Giggity said:
Debbie Downer you need to have a positive attitude.

Who is being a downer? I'm injecting facts into a discussion about the future of this profession. Mostly because I am sick of hearing all the BS about the HIRING BOOM that is coming, (sign on that insurmountable loan today, fly a jet is six weeks).

Giggity said:
I am friends with a couple of your old flight instructor buddies who specifically told me to give you crap..

Who? They may know me, but any friend of mine would do it themselves, you are not doing a very good job of "giving me crap" PM me if you like.

Giggity said:
FYI- You should really try another state because Utah is the bottomless pit of corporate gigs.

And didn't you say

Giggity said:
non existent corp gig

Which one is it?

What does my state of residence have to do with anything in this discussion? Have I quoted Utah pilot certificate certificates? All the data I have posted is from the Federal level.

FYI- I love it here, have a decent paying job, and flying an average of 60 hours a month, YOU should try it here

Giggity said:
Hows KPVU these days with students?

Busier than I have ever seen it, and that is no stretch, it really is with the exception of no more Silver State Helicopters trying to kill me

Giggity said:
I know of a couple people "including a friend" who got hired with a DUI back in short lived hiring boom. So I am not going to anounce that over the forums.

you said:

Giggity said:
majors calling back pilots with DUI's

was it hired or recalled? By a Major or some regional?

Well, I'm off to work, 8 AM till 7PM with students, filling that void left by the white hairs.

moxiepilot · Sep 30, 2009

Giggity · Sep 30, 2009

Actually I did:

99,969/271,584 = only 36%, are you going to say that a full 64% of the total employable pilots in this country are not competing for jobs? Please provide something other than your opinion to back that up.

>How do you know if they are employable?? They could be only Comm ASEL not multi. Thats not very employable for majority of the 121 spots. The school I work at has over 170 commercial rated pilots on file. About 15 of them that actually want to do this for a living.< Thats called a fact "not estimate" because its in the computer system stating what they want to do with their flying. Estimated source online stated that almost half of the new commercial certificates per year are foreign students "not going to hunt for the info because I really dont care!"

the charts also say ACTIVE, right after ESTIMATED; I agree the FAA is not perfect in keeping track of these things, but if you can suggest a more accurate source than the agency that issues the certificates I will gladly accept it. No I don't do the whole "visual reference" thing to base my opinions, I use facts, from the same source already cited:
While the numbers do show a high number approaching that "Age 65", only about 9% of ATPs and Commercial pilots fall into the 60-64 bracket. Those retiring by 2023 like you say is everyone between the age 50-54 bracket up to age 65, those total 56,208 ATPs and 38,109 Commercial Pilots or a total of 34% of the total number of Active employable pilots in the US.

>The only way the FAA tracks this information is by the issuance of the license. So by saying they are all active as a fact is bs and just a estimate like it states on the chart. <

the void is already well on its way to being filled, those numbers show no decrease in student pilot certificates issued compared with the last 10 years; though that excludes 2009s data which will show some decrease over previous years, but it certainly has not died entirely.
thousands does not mount up to hundreds of thousands

:rotfl: Yea every private pilot ends up getting their commercial rating. Majority of privates out there are flying for fun "not going to go and find the numbers". You might be biased since you instruct at a university that advertises professional pilots. The same univ I graduated from with only a small portion that actually finnishes and goes on to being a professional pilot.

Who? They may know me, but any friend of mine would do it themselves, you are not doing a very good job of "giving me crap" PM me if you like.
>You need to know your friends bettter... You call them every so often to talk about life, lack of corp gigs ect ..

And didn't you say Which one is it?

What does my state of residence have to do with anything in this discussion? Have I quoted Utah pilot certificate certificates? All the data I have posted is from the Federal level.

> Because the lack of jobs in that crappy state might make you biased on the negitive hype.<

FYI- I love it here, have a decent paying job, and flying an average of 60 hours a month, YOU should try it here

> Yea getting paid peanuts and having to force my students to fly the simulator sounds great! Anytime the weather is a little crappy all the planes are grounded by that wonderful college. Flying in the same area over and over that doesnt produce good pilots. I was offered a job there, but no thank you!< Plus I like the 100 hours I get a month.

Busier than I have ever seen it, and that is no stretch, it really is with the exception of no more Silver State Helicopters trying to kill me

> Silverstate where such radio s back in the day when there was no tower<

you said:

was it hired or recalled? By a Major or some regional?
> Recalled and Hired - Majors<

Lets just agree to dissagree and be on our merry way

jynxyjoe · Sep 30, 2009

Giggity said:
Lets just agree to dissagree and be on our merry way

Quite a attitude change from the war call earlier.

Airdale · Sep 30, 2009

Pilot shortage will not happen. Give up. Put your hopes in finding the Easter bunny in your living room wearing nothing but panties.....think PB.

beasly · Sep 30, 2009

bdhill1979 said:
You did not answer my question, which Major airline was recalling DUIs?

What does Utah and Skywest have to do with anything? Nationwide there are far more qualified pilots than there are jobs. According to the FAA as of 2008 there are 124,746 commercial pilots, and 146, 838 Airline Transport Pilots, making a total of 271,584 employable pilots in the US. According to Airline Pilot Central there are 99,696 US based jobs. Granted that is not a full accounting of Corporate, Flight instructing, air ag, etc..... but that is a VERY LARGE portion of the total jobs in this country.

Edit to add: I took the number of total pilots, not the active, so there are thousands on furlough already, adding to the EXCESS of pilots versus jobs available.

<table x:str="" style="border-collapse: collapse; width: 143pt;" width="190" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><col style="width: 95pt;" width="126"> <col style="width: 48pt;" width="64"> <tbody><tr style="height: 18pt;" height="24"> <td colspan="2" class="xl26" style="height: 18pt; width: 143pt;" height="24" width="190">Legacy</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Alaska</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="1455" align="right">1,455</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">American</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="11166" align="right">11,166</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Continental</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="4867" align="right">4,867</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Delta</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="12299">12,299</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Hawiian</td> <td x:num="" align="right">404</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Northwest</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="5156" align="right">5,156</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">United</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="6478" align="right">6,478</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">US Airways</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="5275" align="right">5,275</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">
</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Total</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="47100" x:fmla="=SUM(B2:B9)" align="right">47,100</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">
</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 18pt;" height="24"> <td colspan="2" class="xl26" style="height: 18pt;" height="24">Major-National-LCC</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Air Tran</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="1632" align="right">1,632</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Allegiant</td> <td x:num="" align="right">281</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Aloha</td> <td x:num="" align="right">34</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">American Eagle</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="2725" align="right">2,725</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">ASA</td> <td x:num="" align="right">1695</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Comair</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="1476" align="right">1,476</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Express Jet</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="2725" align="right">2,725</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Frontier</td> <td x:num="" align="right">718</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Jet Blue</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="2006" align="right">2,006</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Mesa</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="1446" align="right">1,446</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Midwest</td> <td x:num="" align="right">390</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Republic</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="2069" align="right">2,069</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Skywest</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="2809" align="right">2,809</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Southwest</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="5915" align="right">5,915</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Spirit</td> <td x:num="" align="right">519</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Sun Country</td> <td x:num="" align="right">156</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" x:str="USA 3000 " height="17">USA 3000 </td> <td x:num="" align="right">129</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Virgin America</td> <td x:num="" align="right">327</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">
</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" x:str="Total " height="17">Total </td> <td class="xl24" x:num="27052" x:fmla="=SUM(B14:B31)" align="right">27,052</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">
</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 18pt;" height="24"> <td class="xl27" style="height: 18pt;" height="24">CARGO</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">
</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">ABX air</td> <td x:num="" align="right">630</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">AirNet</td> <td x:num="" align="right">148</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Ameriflight</td> <td x:num="" align="right">200</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Amerijet</td> <td x:num="" align="right">57</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Arrow</td> <td x:num="" align="right">120</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Astar</td> <td x:num="" align="right">503</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">ATI</td> <td x:num="" align="right">150</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Atlas</td> <td x:num="" align="right">630</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Capital</td> <td x:num="" align="right">105</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Centurion</td> <td x:num="" align="right">69</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Empire</td> <td x:num="" align="right">102</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Evergreen</td> <td x:num="" align="right">225</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">FedEx</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="4678" align="right">4,678</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Flight Express</td> <td x:num="" align="right">37</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Kalitta</td> <td x:num="" align="right">360</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Kalitta Charters</td> <td x:num="" align="right">35</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Lynden</td> <td x:num="" align="right">80</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Mountain Air Cargo</td> <td x:num="" align="right">120</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">National</td> <td x:num="" align="right">34</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Polar</td> <td x:num="" align="right">360</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Southern Air</td> <td x:num="" align="right">265</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Tradewinds</td> <td x:num="" align="right">115</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">UPS</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="2908" align="right">2,908</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">
</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Total</td> <td x:num="" x:fmla="=SUM(B37:B59)" align="right">11931</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">
</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 18pt;" height="24"> <td colspan="2" class="xl28" style="height: 18pt;" height="24">REGIONAL</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Air Wisconsin</td> <td x:num="" align="right">716</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Cape Air</td> <td x:num="" align="right">188</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Colgan Air</td> <td x:num="" align="right">435</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Commut Air</td> <td x:num="" align="right">130</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Compass</td> <td x:num="" align="right">365</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Era</td> <td x:num="" align="right">58</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Go Jet</td> <td x:num="" align="right">250</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Great Lakes</td> <td x:num="" align="right">335</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Gulfstream</td> <td x:num="" align="right">260</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Horizon Air</td> <td x:num="" align="right">721</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Island Air</td> <td x:num="" align="right">64</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Lynx</td> <td x:num="" align="right">104</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Mesaba</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="1169" align="right">1,169</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Pen Air</td> <td x:num="" align="right">120</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Piedmont</td> <td x:num="" align="right">477</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Pinnacle</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="1303" align="right">1,303</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">PSA</td> <td x:num="" align="right">520</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Trans States</td> <td x:num="" align="right">446</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">
</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" x:str="Total " height="17">Total </td> <td x:num="" x:fmla="=SUM(B64:B81)" align="right">7661</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">
</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 18pt;" height="24"> <td colspan="2" class="xl28" style="height: 18pt;" height="24">FRACTIONAL</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Avantair</td> <td x:num="" align="right">234</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Citation Shares</td> <td x:num="" align="right">410</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Flex Jet</td> <td x:num="" align="right">460</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Flight Options</td> <td x:num="" align="right">534</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">NetJets</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="2943" align="right">2,943</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Planesense</td> <td x:num="" align="right">105</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">XO Jet</td> <td x:num="" align="right">100</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">
</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Total</td> <td x:num="" x:fmla="=SUM(B86:B92)" align="right">4786</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">
</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 18pt;" height="24"> <td colspan="2" class="xl28" style="height: 18pt;" height="24">CHARTER</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">
</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Key Lime Air</td> <td x:num="" align="right">31</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Miami Air</td> <td x:num="" align="right">99</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">North American</td> <td x:num="" align="right">190</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Omni Air</td> <td x:num="" align="right">245</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Ryan International</td> <td x:num="" align="right">145</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">World</td> <td x:num="" align="right">525</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Xtra</td> <td x:num="" align="right">31</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">
</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Total</td> <td x:num="" x:fmla="=SUM(B98:B104)" align="right">1266</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">
</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 18pt;" height="24"> <td colspan="2" class="xl28" style="height: 18pt;" height="24">PART 135</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Air Cargo Carriers</td> <td x:num="" align="right">70</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Kalitta Charters</td> <td x:num="" align="right">51</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Kenmore Air</td> <td x:num="" align="right">52</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">
</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Total</td> <td x:num="" x:fmla="=SUM(B109:B111)" align="right">173</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">
</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">
</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">
</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">
</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" x:str="Grand Total " height="17">Grand Total </td> <td class="xl24" x:num="99969" x:fmla="=SUM(B113,B106,B94,B83,B61,B33,B11)" align="right">99,969</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
<link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CBen%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C04%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><style>  </style> P.S.: You are contradicting yourself in saying "More pilots than jobs". Is that not the definition of no shortage?

P.P.S.: I am in that "Non-existent Corp Gig", have been for over two years now.

Good post! Thanks for doing that work.

b .

Inverted25 · Sep 30, 2009

thing is those numbers above arent all the pilot jobs out there.. what about castle aviation flying a fleet of caravans and aerostars.. what about griffin airlines flying two islanders, a saratoga, a navajo, and two king airs... what about all the mom and pop charters... i would bet that lists leaves off at least 1000 jobs... this is a never ending argument though because no one really knows how many commercially rated pilots are looking for jobs and no one really knows the exact number of people employed as pilots.. at least your list doesnt show it because you left off a few and those are just in my neighborhood.. take the whole country and i bet you left off ALOT... plus what about all the flight schools employing pilots and airshow pilots etc etc.. you left alot of jobs off that list

bdhill1979 · Sep 30, 2009

Giggity said:
>You need to know your friends bettter... You call them every so often to talk about life, lack of corp gigs ect ..

> Because the lack of jobs in that crappy state might make you biased on the negitive hype.<

Lets just agree to dissagree and be on our merry way

1. I think you may have me confused with somebody else, I never complain about a "lack of corporate gigs"......because I have one, as I wrote already. Now if it is Kelly you know, its not me that bitches, its him; that kid bitches and moans all day long, tell him I am going give him the option of either: a swift kick in the nuts, or compare my paystub to his. I think he would pick the kick as less painful.

2.The best argument you have is to call my state of residence crappy? Classy

3. Biased on negative hype? What hype? What negativity? I am posting data, real numbers showing that nobody should get themselves into an insurmountable debt load to try to shortcut their way into this career. Hiring will happen, but not in any kind of hurry. I am not telling people to stay away from this career, but to be realistic. To say what Public Enemy so eloquently did years ago:

jynxyjoe · Sep 30, 2009

bdhill1979 said:
1. I think you may have me confused with somebody else, I never complain about a "lack of corporate gigs"......because I have one, as I wrote already. Now if it is Kelly you know, its not me that bitches, its him; that kid bitches and moans all day long, tell him I am going give him the option of either: a swift kick in the nuts, or compare my paystub to his. I think he would pick the kick as less painful.

2.The best argument you have is to call my state of residence crappy? Classy

3. Biased on negative hype? What hype? What negativity? I am posting data, real numbers showing that nobody should get themselves into an insurmountable debt load to try to shortcut their way into this career. Hiring will happen, but not in any kind of hurry. I am not telling people to stay away from this career, but to be realistic. To say what Public Enemy so eloquently did years ago:

Hehe.

Giggity... hush.

intern_mike · Sep 30, 2009

Least anyone forget that banks can no longer lend to ANY flight schools other than universities. With the training so expensive, and the pay so low, it's too much of a risk. This is a wall we have yet to encounter in the industry. Hence my legitimate concern. Sure there is a surplus now, but what will happen as the economy recovers and new pilots are needed?

USMCmech · Sep 30, 2009

intern_mike said:
but what will happen as the economy recovers and new pilots are needed?

Rising demand + decreasing supply = higher wages for pilots.

There are PLENTY of qualified pilots out there to meet the airline's staffing needs. They just won't work at Mesa, Eagle, Colgan, ect. for the crappy pay that is offered.

jdlilfan · Sep 30, 2009

Matt13C said:
No idea, hopefully he is making a good amount of it though. I hope to work there after I get my CFI and would like to not be in poverty. I know it can be much worse though.

Not to change the subject but the CFI may only be making 3/4 to 1/2 of the wage charged with an FBO plus then you have to pay the Gov't. Now throw in a couple bad weather days and it's poverty wage week. With flight instructing it's feast or famine.

The best thing one could do is network with hanger tenets so you can work for yourself, charge a respectable wage, fly in some cool aircraft, and gain a decent reputation.

Back to the original post.

I haven't heard of any of our (our meaning University) students getting denied financial aid. And this is coming from a Part 61 flight school who contracts with the University. Pretty good year in numbers of incoming freshman as well. Everyone is staying pretty busy.

the third problem

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