The phoenix campass

[JoeBlow]

About a year and a half ago, Pan Am had the ACE program scheduled after the student finished their CIF’s. The problem was that after students finished their CIF’s they didn’t have any money left to finish ACE, so Pan Am rescheduled ACE so students would have to take it before starting their CFI; this was a smart business move for Pan Am. If you look at ACE from a business point of view, it's a total cash cow for Pan Am. One thing I was told prior to attending was that Pan Am hires students who finish the program and only hire people from outside if they are in need of instructors. It seems like more than half of the instructors are from outside the program. They con the students into paying for extra training that is unnecessary and inform them that unless they finish the complete program Pan Am will not hire them. On the other hand, I see new instructors popping up left and right who never did their training with Pan Am. Someone told me they prefer instructors from outside because they don't know what to inform their students on to help them pass stage checks the first time-a lot of stage check pilots have a routine. You can do everything by PTS and if the instructor doesn't like you or is having a bad day you will fail on something; I have seen this happen to many people. The stage check pilots like to take students down to Casa Grande for stage checks, which are just shy of 50nm for the student to log a x-country, but for the instructor they get to log it because they are working towards their ATP. For those who don't know, there is a practice area about 10nm away from DVT along with numerous airports for various approaches. The school makes more money by taking students down to Casa Grande for stage checks verses staying local. It seems it would be more beneficial to spend money on attaining a type rating in a full motion simulator verses wasting money on a FTD that isn’t even FAA certified and therefore the student is unable to log the time. Students who do ACE will not benefit one bit. They do ACE after their commercial and then from that point on they have to earn their CFI’s and build time. So, after ACE if one would continue on and become a flight instructor with Pan Am they would be looking at around a year and a half before attaining hours needed to apply to a regional. Doing ACE a year and a half prior to attaining a job with a regional carrier is not designed to help someone pass training; it is designed for Pan Am to make money. If some are just to thick to recognize this now, I believe they will have a wakeup call in the future after spending 7k for something they will completely forget over a year down the road.

 

[dakovich]

the whole situation just sucks ass

 

[Mavmb]

I read the above posts. Nothing at Pan Am has changed. What's still going on at this school is just sickening. I'm serious, it really turns my stomach. All the administration cares about is making money, and many young people then go into serious debt for the rest of their lives. Since they moved the ace program ahead of the cfi now, they are even sucking more money out of the students, and a lot of them are ending up broke and pennyless. Without the cfi, they can't make a living flying either, which is exaclty what every student is ultimately trying to do to.

 

[perpetual]

Theives

 

[derg]

I don't mean to sound negative, again, but 100% of businesses generally only care about your money, especially the flight training business because it generally isn't a very profitable venture until they start adding on lots and lots of "special programs".

Like for a short time, my college offered a turbine transition course for a lot of money, whereas flying a turboprop is almost as easy as flying a fixed-prop Cessna at twice the speed.

Finding training is always a balance between getting a good education and not mortaging your financial future away in loans galore.

 

[dakovich]

the thing is, from what i've seen and heard is this: at whatever point ACE is positioned in the training, is the point right before many students will drop out of the school...thats pretty much a fact. many students drop out before they reach ACE for whatever reason be it money or whatever.

see, now i don't understand the mentality in a business sense of this move. yes, the idea is to put ACE first so students are supposedly forced into taking it before they can complete their CFI training...but in reality now, students leave before the even get to ACE and they also bypass getting all those instructor ratings. good for students because they can save all kinds of money not only by not paying for ACE but also by getting their instructor ratings at an FBO or wherever for half the price, and not to mention making themselves far more marketable at said FBO because they have some sort of training history with them. before, as i've said, people would get their instructor ratings and then leave before ACE, but in the process had to work 10 times as hard to get a CFI job elsewhere because of the tight market and loyalty of schools to their own students who actually paid money to go to the school previously. the idea that if you pay to train somewhere you have a greater chance to work there because of your previous connection to that school.

i guess its all about the student and if he/she intends to stay on through the entire program...for those who do stay on it matters little where ACE is placed, becasue either way its put at a point in your training where its effectivness isn't maximized (1to 1 1/2 years prior to being hired if yer lucky)...and either way you're intending to just go by the sylabus, role with the punches and hope to be added on as an instructor.

for those who want to leave before ACE, its good that you are able to bypass the ACE, CFI, CFII, MEI costs, along with going to wherever else and getting those instructor ratings for far less money and also building a report (sp?) with that school so you have a better chance to become a CFI with them so you can continue on with your dream of being a pro. pilot.

 

[Guest]

There is no doubt in my mind that ace is a great program. But unfortunately, not that high of a percentage of the students here can afford it after going over budget with the rest of the program. What kills is that there is no stipulation in the contract that allows you to be released from taking ace or route( the non essentials) if you can't financially finish.
Route and ACE are what brand you as a pan am trained pilot. It guarantees prospective employors a certain level of proficiency. I understand why Pan Am stresses them, they have to back up their claims to the airlines. The airlines are pan am's customers too.
But, without the cfi ratings you are more than likely done with your stint in aviation. It just seems like an avoidable situation. In my opinion, finances are just as much a reason to be released from the contract as illness. If you can't finish, you can't finish.
In response to Dougs comment about extra programs bringing in the money. I thought about it and i think that the sims, instructor briefs and ace are the only real profit centers here. the plane rentals are probably not that profitable depending on what deal pan am gets from piper.

 

[panampilot]

I am a graduate of the ace program and I am very happy I completed it. Now before all you playa haters jump on and tell me how stupid I was for paying for this, listen to my story and rest your little fingers.
The first day of Ace, Pan Am told me that since I was doing this early in my training that they would offer and they expected us to come back and retake the groundschool and fly the sim for FREE.
I can already see all you guys getting worked up about this being an empty promise. Well it's not because I know of at least two individuals who were encouraged to come back before the interviews that Pan Am set up for them. Why wouldn't Pan Am want them to do this. Pan Am doesn't want our Ace graduates going to these interviews and looking like idiots because we don't remember anything about the CRJ.
I understand everyones complaint about it being early in the program. Don't worry your little heads off though, Pan Am will allow you to take a refresher course. Now have at me you wolves!

 

[guido161st]

Sure I'llhave at ya... You are not going to be asked anything about a CRJ in your interview or a glass cockpit for that matter. Second- we would all love for you to come back and report when you get this "FREE" refresher course! So you can be suckered- it's cool with me! I'll take my 8 grand and get real training, logable training, and a damn type rating for god sakes! Check out websites with interview gauges and see how many, if any, were asked about a CRJ or any jet, or glass cockpit durning an interview! GEEZ o PEETS Pan Am has got you really fooled! At least some of the other guys that go there see the light! You my friend are blind-folded! Good Luck

 

[Tired]

Pan Am is not hiring outside instructors. The new CFIs you see around are on a temperory contract, once enough Pan Am students finish their CFI they will be gone. I think the stagechecks are at the correct level of difficulty. Look at the pass rate for rides right now, it sucks. Either the students aren't performing well or the examiners are too hard. Pan Am doesn't hire outside instructors because they don't know how to pass the stagechecks, they do it so they have enough people so that they can fly the students twice each day and maximize revenue.

Flights to Casa Grande are cross-country time. Just like flights to SDL or TUS. Moreover, you can count that time at CGZ towards your ATP. Just lke the current instructors you can expect that you'll need it to get a job, the fabled ACE program isn't going to help you much. It's ok to go down to Casa Grande to shot the ILS, the reason they started doing it on stagechecks was because the DEs started doing it on checkrides and people would fail. It's not like it's much further then Gateway.

Rest of what you say is good points.

keephopealive09: I'd need to save $8000 in training if I was going to sellout and teach for $5/hr. Thanks for keeping up the profession.

 

[guido161st]

I don't make 5/hr --- get your facts straight!!

 

[guido161st]

and... if you're talkin about acclerated, I've never worked there and I never will! Ahhhh another Pan Am sucker....so.. how much are you in debt? It feels so good to be woking 135 and not owe a dime! Thank God I left- see ya in the skies.......someday!

 

[dakovich]

i still say that if the market wasn't crappy none of this would be an issue. the outlook for hihiring causes students to want to maximize financial and instructional gain...hence no one wants to take ACE. plain and simple.

and we don't need to all get in another pissing match over all of this either. we all have the same goals with different opinions on how to achieve them. so why fight about it, if you've got a story to say then say it, but don't be a sarcastic little ass when you write it.

ACE is still a good program, a little expensive but still on par cost wise with FSI's program (except there you get level "D" full motion SAAB sim time thats loggable) as for route, i think that is one of the schools really positive parts along with CRM training. Route was a great experience, pretty cheap actually, and gets you a tatse of what flying around for hire mightl be like some day.

 

[JoeBlow]

I enjoyed CRM sim time and Route. After route I left because I didn't enjoy being ripped off. People, everyone is giving opinions about their experiences at Pan Am. You can learn from others, or you can learn on your own. If you don’t care about how much money you spend, enjoy Pan Am because you will spend a lot to finish everything they have to offer. I don’t care how much one spends on their training; it’s your money. I'm just giving a fare warning as are others. I like to learn from others mistakes. It usually saves me time and money.

 

[Tired]

Re: The phoenix campass *DELETED*

Post deleted by Tired

 

[Tired]

Why complete the CRM and the route and then not be a instructor? You've pretty much paid for everything at Pan Am and you'll make more money and fly more teaching at Pan Am then most other schools.

And keephopewhatnotalive9384: I thought I read somewhere else on here that you taught at Accelerated. Also, zero debt, I didn't go through Pan Am's program.

 

[dakovich]

CRM and route are in my opinion well worth the money. many people don't weigh their future debt until mid way through their training...not sure why. but even just on a money scale you can save yourself a good $15,000 by leaving the program after the route section and completing your training elswhere. of course you don't get to finish with the school, and instruct there with all its benefits but you save a buttload of cash. its all about what the individual student sees as suitable for them.

 

[User997]

I'm not going to try and sell anyone on Pan Am, but I think everyone who is thinking about leaving the program, should atleast stay thru the Route program.

I don't plan on finishing with Pan Am, but I made the decision prior to starting the Route program to atleast stay long enough to do that and get the mult time since I was already there (will leave when I finish up my Commerical rating) because the Multi time, and Multi cross country time are golden when it comes to the quality of time in your logbook. A future employer isn't going to care if you have 200 hours in a single engine plane. They want to see the multi time. And if you do go to another FBO, it will take forever to build 80 hours of multi time, and even then it won't be cross country time, or a "fun" way of building the multi time!

And I've had a decent experience with the program (we all have good and bad to say) but I saw the Route program as kind of a reward for getting to where I was at. It's usually just you and your friend flying all over the southwest having a great time doing it. It was truly one of the first times that I ever looked forward to going to school, and the confidence it built was termendous. Besides its more of a joy ride, nobody really follows the whole route program rules anyways!

Well thats my two cents on the deal... You've already spent a ton of money up to that point, so you might as well just stick it out for one more rating, and atleast get the multi time and then leave if you want!

 

[panampilot]

Dakovich, sorry you didn't like my comments but I am sick and tired of these guys who can't get on with their lives. They veg by their computer 24/7 just waiting for somebody to post something positive about Pan Am, and then they pounce. It's frustrating to those of us who are just trying to "tell our story". I understand they had bad experiences, and I can understand how frustrating that would be, but come on. Get over it, move on and use some of that extra energy to further your career!

 

[User997]

AMEN PanAmPilot!!!!