The mentality of a "Fast-Track" program and low time commercial airline pilots...

I'm with you, but let us be honest, it ain't gonna happen. A unified ALPA benefits the lower tier of the seniority list, not the upper. For the pay to come up like you and I want, it would involve the higher end of all seniority lists to accept less of a pay raise(s) on subsequent contracts. The increased pay for across the board pay scales will most likely come from mainlines pockets, since they will have to increase what they pay these regionals to provide feed. Money comes from mainline, mainline pilots get less of a raise. Do you really think a 25+ year 777 captain at United is going to fall on his sword for a 1st year CRJ FO?


Now, you wanna talk about getting rid of the antiquated and useless pay per flight hour model we have, lets have a discussion.
 
Captain_Bob made a very interesting statement and he said something like "I am not an aviator, I am a pilot" (sorry if I slaughtered it). Nevertheless, I think the thing ATP and other associated "pilot mills" do is create PILOTS not aviators.

I personally want to be an aviator.

I want to know the fundamentals of flying as if I had a PhD in such disciplines.

To me, that's a pilot. So if it takes me longer to study, CFI, and gain experience, I'll take it.
 
I'm with you, but let us be honest, it ain't gonna happen. A unified ALPA benefits the lower tier of the seniority list, not the upper. For the pay to come up like you and I want, it would involve the higher end of all seniority lists to accept less of a pay raise(s) on subsequent contracts. The increased pay for across the board pay scales will most likely come from mainlines pockets, since they will have to increase what they pay these regionals to provide feed. Money comes from mainline, mainline pilots get less of a raise. Do you really think a 25+ year 777 captain at United is going to fall on his sword for a 1st year CRJ FO?


Now, you wanna talk about getting rid of the antiquated and useless pay per flight hour model we have, lets have a discussion.

In my opinion ALPA is regretting that they sort of dropped the ball the past with regionals. There is a new regime in ALPA, they don't want to make the same mistakes of the past. Captain Prater and the heads of ALPA came from the commuter ranks.

I don't think that the mainline guys need to take cuts to improve the way a first year CRJ FO lives and is paid. Pinnacle took over $250 million in cash since January. Skywest is having the airplanes PAID for by Delta. Most of the fuel the regionals use is paid for by the major airlines. The regional pilots need to stand up, tell management that they DO have the money to pay us, so dang it do it.

Times are a changing in the industry. I really believe there is a shortage. Time to exploit it in our favor.
 
totally agree seggy but, there is always gonna be some jackass with a comm certificate and a pulse who will gladly do the job for free. Management knows and loves that fact that these SJSers exist and will exploit the #### out of this.
 
totally agree seggy but, there is always gonna be some jackass with a comm certificate and a pulse who will gladly do the job for free. Management knows and loves that fact that these SJSers exist and will exploit the #### out of this.


Oh I know and that is the main problem. We need to prevent that. How, that is the million dollar question.
 
It may take a terrible accident, God forbid.

Maybe the FAA will mandate 1200 hours until part 121 flying can be done, although I dont see it happening anytime soon.


The sad and scary thing is some FAA regs are written in blood.
 
It may take a terrible accident, God forbid.

Maybe the FAA will mandate 1200 hours until part 121 flying can be done, although I dont see it happening anytime soon.

So will 135 regs be lowered? I mean if they arent carrying pax who cares? totally being a smart you know what here but seriously....
 
So will 135 regs be lowered? I mean if they arent carrying pax who cares? totally being a smart you know what here but seriously....

I believe the 135 regs are why they are is due to the nature of their flying (ie single pilot IFR).

The guys flying passengers in jets and turboprops should have similar standards, IMO.
 
Captain_Bob made a very interesting statement and he said something like "I am not an aviator, I am a pilot" (sorry if I slaughtered it). Nevertheless, I think the thing ATP and other associated "pilot mills" do is create PILOTS not aviators.

I personally want to be an aviator.

I want to know the fundamentals of flying as if I had a PhD in such disciplines.

To me, that's a pilot. So if it takes me longer to study, CFI, and gain experience, I'll take it.

Just for context & clarification... this is what I said:

Today's flying is not yesterday's flying. The basic aerodynamic factors haven't changed... just the process and the systems on the aircraft as well as advances in airline training groundschools. I completely agree that folks are not "aviators" these days... but... not everyone want's to be an "aviator" as they head into the 121 field. Folks these days are seeing it as simply a different type of job that offers a different lifestyle. For better or worse... the planes are easier to fly, the airspace is easier to understand, and the FAA has spent years clarifying the rules to the point where now we can almost fully understand them.

In fact... I believe that "aviators" are the most frustrated folks in the 121 arena. It is too restrictive an environment for what I would call a true "aviator". So... I see your point... but... as you said... it's a different environment these days.

By your definition... I am not a true "aviator". I'm OK with that. I'm not here to be the Chuck Yeager of ExpressJet. I'm here to do my job and do it well while fully expecting not to be taken advantage of my my management... and I will work hard toward that end. I also take the time to take my kids up in the 172 on the side for a bit of family fun. So... I'm not an aviator... just a decent "pilot guy" who takes his life, his work, his passion to fly, and his family very seriously.

Being a Professional Pilot vs. an Aviator does not bring down the industry. You don't need a PHD in aerodynamics to be a professional pilot. The fundamentals of flying have been learned. I don't need to learn them 5 other ways for them to make any more sense to me... and even if I did learn them any better in order to get the esteemed moniker of "aviator"... it still won't help that much in contract negotiations...

I think being an "aviator" has more to do with a certain "attitude" and a natural inate ability (Ala this short film "Pilots"). That's something you don't learn at an FBO or the Flight Schools. I have flown with several guys who I would deem "aviators" who went to the "mill" for training. Tram... comes to mind almost immediately. ;)

Bob
 
Lots of interesting discussions here.

Let's be honest here about a few things. First and foremost, ALPA has a lot more to focus on than the hiring requirements at the regionals and the schools our nation's pilots are training at. We can all agree that we want to see the best and most well-trained pilots getting hired to fly with us, and that may or may not be happening. ALPA would need to apply a lot of time and resources into changing the hiring requirements at the airlines, which is something I just do not see happening. There haven't been any accidents attributed to low-time pilots at this point. How does ALPA have a leg to stand on with no empirical evidence that low-time pilots are dangerous? We do have evidence that fatigue can lead to accidents (reference Corporate Airlines flight 5966, American Airlines 1420, etc.), but rest and duty rule changes aren't even a consideration. Why? Like Doug said, money. Mainly, political pressures from the ATA and airline management.

Now facing the realization that the hiring trends are not going to change, what exactly can we do? Can we immediately force wage increases across the board to all regional pilots to entice quality individuals? If you believe that is a possibility, pass the pipe over this direction... I want a hit. It is going to be a long, drawn-out process to get regional wages and work rules anywhere near where we'd hope them to be. "Taking it back" is not going to happen in a year, two years, or maybe even five years.

So if we cannot force the FAA to implement hiring requirements, and we cannot convince management to raise compensation to attract quality individuals (aren't we getting quality pilots already? We are seeing no accidents), what exactly can we do?

I think the only thing we can do is instill a strong work ethic in the student training atmosphere, and renew a sense of responsibility for the CFI. If we attack the problem at the root, it will spread up the tree. Go to the schools, meet with the students and instructors, and convince them that applying themselves and learning the right things will not only help them achieve their goals in aviation, but will also ensure they maintain career longevity and competitiveness against their peers. Teach the CFIs about their responsibility to their students, and why putting one-hundred percent of themselves into their instruction will help them at the next level. Explain to student pilots how applying themselves and taking a "one step at a time" approach to flying will give them a better foundation to build upon when they do become a professional airline pilot.

You all know I was a low-time new-hire pilot. I had to put forward extra effort to ensure that I would get through training and be an effective pilot on the line, not just another "low-timer" that couldn't pull my weight. It takes hard work, determination, a lot of self-study and no ego. Now that I've been around here for a while, I still hold the opinion there is nothing wrong with hiring a pilot with low time. I just hope that said pilot has paid attention in their student training, and is ready for what lies ahead. They need to have a good attitude, and know their limitations. I have flown with guys with very little time, and they do a fine job. The guys who don't do well are the ones who think they know it all, and don't open themselves to constructive criticism. I may seem like a "know-it-all," but I've always been very open to criticism. It is the only reason I have gotten to where I am today: I had some great Captains who offered a lot of advice and constructive criticism to mold me into a better pilot. I think many of our new-hires are getting hung out to dry a bit in that regard.

Like I said, the only thing we control right now is the hearts and minds of those at the most basic level: Student training. At the airline level, there is too much pressure from the politicians and management, because an airline is a business. It is air commerce. The training atmosphere does not have the pressure of supplying air commerce. The success of a training business depends on how well their students perform. Are the students of today just getting by to pass the checkride, or are they really developing into the effective crewmembers of tomorrow? No, I do not mean learning to run a challenge and response checklist or learning to find their location when lost on a G1000 GPS glass-cockpit. I mean being real, effective pilots. How are we doing?
 
Perhaps someone with the right resources (ALPA?) can create an educational DVD and website.

Take the DVD and mail them to every private pilot under 27 who has earned their rating in the last few years (probable soon to be regional pilot).

The DVD could paint a good picture of what it is like to fly for a regional...the schedule, pay, ramen noodles and all. It could address the issue of how 21/hr to fly a jet is bringing down the industry, and what they can do to help (not apply to a regional).

Could show other career paths to gain hours....

Website could have a forum....




We already know that a lot of these sub 1000 hour pilots would die to fly fora regional, and then 6 months into it realize the pay blows.....

It might get to a few of them.....
 
Im gunna make a few points and hopefully not stir up controversy.

1. There is a PILOT SHORTAGE
If you do not think there is you are either a pessimist or in denial. The pilot shortage is NOT because of pay. The pilot shortages have been predicted far before 9-11 when pay was great. I believe the pilot shortage is due to how expensive it is to start flight training, massive airline expansion, and baby boomer retirements

2. There is nothing wrong with having a FAST-TRACK mentality.
There is a pilot shortage. For the sake of the industry pilots need to be developed FAST and efficiently. How else are we going to do it? Where are you going to find your 1000TT 100ME pilots to fill all the jobs Segs? This is NOT a pay issue. This is a SUPPLY and DEMAND issue. The bar is not being lowered. Times are being lowered to find more pilots.

3. There is nothing wrong with low-time pilots. There is nothing wrong with high time pilots. It all comes down to the individual. Each of us is different with different minds. Whatever you want to do with your career, do what you feel is best. If you want to instruct more, do it. If you feel you are ready to take the next step, do it.

Lastly, Segs you keep saying at 500 hrs you weren't ready for the 1900. Please let the younger and low-time pilots know WHY you weren't ready. Also, tell us what you would have gained instructing at your pre-1900 job that would have better prepared you. Thanks!
 
Seggy Said "Oh I know and that is the main problem. We need to prevent that. How, that is the million dollar question."

Seggy, mate, from reading your prior posts on this board I know your a top notch guy...but statements like this come accross as pretty darn preachy. Especailly since you were a low time guy when you started at Colgan. I think its kinda a little hypocritical to go and get hired with that time and then later when you get incolved with ALPA you turn around and say ohh.....I shouldn;t have been flying at 500 hours etc etc.

You are basically saying something to the affect that you want this practice...that you benefitted from....stopped. If you were so concerned about your lack of skills at the time you went through class and IOE then why didnt you quit Colgan?? you know for the benefit of the passengers???

The answer to that is the same answer that any low timer hired on at a 121 airline would give.

The problem is that there is a shortage of pilots willing to enter those jobs. This has come about from a huge range of factors including everything from fuel price/cost of training to crappy QOL and career expectations. This really doesn't have anything to do with the ATP's of the world its more got to do with market conditions.

Now i'm not saying that this is right or wrong for a 300hr dude to be flying right seat 121 but its a current reality. I just dont think singling out pilot mills and get there itis attitudes help the situation, especially when you are a product of low time employment.

I'm sorry it just comes accross as incredibly preachy and whiny mate.

Anyway, its still be an interesting discussion and I wish you the best for your future and career.

cheers
 
If I wasn't awake with nothing to do at 4:00am, I think I'd stay out of this discussion. But alas...

Seggy, I like your style.

I think all fast track programs should have "My Secret War" by Richard S. Drury on their required reading list. I also wonder if some of this "get there fast" mentality could be erased if the Bob Buck's and Ernest Gann's were revisited.

That said, I'm still really young, not married, and have no mortgage. Freight dogging in crappy wx and late nights in SLC sound like heaven to me. When I hit my 50's I think I'll really enjoy flying heavies, but as long as I've got the freedom to do so, I'm hoping to do some more exciting stuff...aka, instruct until I can land a 135 gig or miraculously dig up enough money to get really good at aerobatics and instruct/compete in aerobatics, hangout at the airport and drool over the warbirds that show up every once in a while, and hopefully convince Uncle Sam to let me serve by flying his airplanes...

At the same time, if none of that works out, I sure as heck wouldn't mind "fast tracking" to a decent regional. To each his own I guess. Just enjoy every bit of the ride, do what you have to do, and things will work themselves out.

Words of wisdom from a 21 year old with very little flying/life experience...;)
 
My concern with the low-time, fast track pilots is the mentality they have regarding flying, studying, and personal improvement. The fast track programs are essentially shortcuts from the other more "traditional" ways of training. Are some of these pilots just looking for the quickest and perceived to be easiest route? Yes. If they are, will they train just to meet the PTS standards or exceed them? I'm sure some will just do the minimum necessary. When they get on the line, will they feel that ground school and initial training is enough and they won't crack another book until checkride time? Will they work to keep sharp on memory items? My fear is we will have more pilots who just want to take the shortcut and not understand that safe flying is a continual process of learning. This is the real danger to our profession and those who rely on it.
 
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