the grass is not always greener.....

[mwflyer]

http://www.abajournal.com/weekly/if_you_had_a_do-over_would_you_choose_law_school


im surprised at the number of no's in the comments section. Their number one gripe is the same as pilots: too much debt from loans.

 

[Murdoughnut]

This doesn't surprise me at all. I've never met an attorney that planned on being an attorney forever - and that includes my wife. There are too many law schools these days, producing too many attorneys. Sound familiar?

The problem with the law is much like the problem with aviation. People want to be lawyers - but they don't want to practice law. Same as how some people want to be pilots, but don't really care about the flying portion.

 

[wheelsup]

My guess is most of the lawyers don't sleep in RV's, eat ramen, etc. for years after graduation. In fact I think pilots have about the poorest lifestyle known to man outside of working at Mickey D's. We just carry that over when we start making "good money", which in my case meant over $40,000/year.

Also there aren't any law offices that charge newly graduated lawyers for experience, are there? I doubt it.

Plus, people are willing to pay good money for the well known law firms. How many people pay extra to fly on a legacy such as Delta because of the experience level of the crews? I bet ZERO.

Edit: just read some of those comments. Damn!!

Let’s see. I now hold ten times the amount of student loans as I did after graduating from undergrad, at more than twice the interest rate. I’ve been unemployed since graduating from an allegedly strong Tier 2 law school two years ago this month. I live in my parents’ basement, and can afford neither health nor malpractice insurance. My last interview with a law firm was eight months ago. I would eagerly take a non-legal job if anyone anywhere was interested in hiring a JD. Sadly, no one is. I do not have ten dollars to my name. So, after careful contemplation, I would have to come to the conclusion that I would not go to law school again, if given the choice. I would not have gone to my top 20 liberal arts college either. Frankly, if I had dropped out in 10th grade and become a truck driver, I would be far better off than I am now, and would probably still have read all the books I did in my seven years of higher education. The only difference is that I would have done it for free at the local library.

I would not do it again. I had an unenjoyable career before I went to law school at age 30, and made $60k a year, had decent benefits, and no debt. I decided to go to law school, after which I am $200k in the hole, I make $65k a year doing doc reviews, have no benefits, work twice as much and can’t stand what I do. Between the $400k the loans will eventually cost me, and the $180k I didn’t make during law school, I’m out $580k, and with 30 years of work remaining, I would have to make about $20k a year more than I would have without law school just to break even. Since all my money goes to loans, I will not be able to buy property or save much money, I probably won’t be able to retire until I’m 75, if I live that long.

There's two gems. It seems there are two different types of people - those that are good and/or lucky and landed good jobs at the right time and those that came up on the flip side of that coin. Sounds kinda like the pilots on here.

 

[Cessna414JJB]

In fact I think pilots have about the poorest lifestyle known to man outside of working at Mickey D's. We just carry that over when we start making "good money", which in my case meant over $40,000/year.

Selfinduced. Lawyers don't undermine their own professionalism all the time.
If there is nothing in it - 90% of them don't want the case.
And they look out for each other, too.

 

[Murdoughnut]

Selfinduced. Lawyers don't undermine their own professionalism all the time.
If there is nothing in it - 90% of them don't want the case.
And they look out for each other, too.

Yeah, there aren't thousands of new attorneys out there willing to do the job for free.

 

[Trip7]

Took one law class in college and even though I did very well, I had absolutely ZERO interest in that mess.

Do something you love and never work a day in your life.

By the way Wheelsup, I'll make over 40k this year, and its my 2nd year with the airlines. Its not great money but I'm not eating Ramen or sleeping in an RV. Completely disagree with your worst living conditions statement:

I went to a top 20 law school and now after my loan payments I net $12,000 a year. I love my job as a clerk, but I will not in my lifetime be able to repay the loans I took out. If I had to do it over I’d either go to a less expensive school or go part-time and work (likely court reporting).

Daynum! Thought we had it bad uh?

I'm very glad the OP brought this issue up. Now maybe people will start to realize the pilot profession is not the poorest profession on earth. I already knew this. I have friends that go to work 5 days a week, deal with ATL traffic 10 days, haven't left the country in years, and make just a couple grand more than me, AND IM ON RESERVE! If I had a line I would blow them out the water.

 

[Cessna414JJB]

Yeah, there aren't thousands of new attorneys out there willing to do the job for free.

Dunno how you meant this, I'm sure they have kids trying to get a foot in the door by working for peanuts. But, generally little dogs don't piss on huge trees and I would hate to be represented by a lawyer with no experience. What good is it to loose a bunch of money just to give some schmuck a chance to learn how NOT to do it?

Uuuups... replace money with life and there you have Aviation...

 

[wheelsup]

By the way Wheelsup, I'll make over 40k this year, and its my 2nd year with the airlines. Its not great money but I'm not eating Ramen or sleeping in an RV. Completely disagree with your worst living conditions statement.

You hit it at a great time for a commuter pilot. I instructed 2 years. Then went to a commuter. I know quite a few who did the same but are on their 2nd or 3rd commuter because of bankruptcy, furlough, you name it. Now they are on reserve again as a first year FO.

How are you on reserve making over $40k? Unless you are working all the time I don't see how that is possible. Being on reserves implies not working much.

 

[Trip7]

You hit it at a great time for a commuter pilot. I instructed 2 years. Then went to a commuter. I know quite a few who did the same but are on their 2nd or 3rd commuter because of bankruptcy, furlough, you name it. Now they are on reserve again as a first year FO.

How are you on reserve making over $40k? Unless you are working all the time I don't see how that is possible. Being on reserves implies not working much.

Whoops Im adding in per diem. I'll make 35k this year. Still not bad. Looks like the lawyers are saying the same thing the unhappy pilots are saying, go to Med School!

I say forget any school. All that does is give you a decent education then you have to rely on someone else(an employer) to give you the opportunity to make money. I say, make your own money. Do something you love that allows you to create your own opportunities because you're in control. What I love about the airline profession is that, one, its incredibly fun, and two, it provides you plenty of free time to create other streams of income for yourself.

While on reserve during the slow winter months I avoided work like the plague and was able to add an additional 5 grand of income with outside opportunities. There's direct selling companies like AVON that are easy and cheap to start up and prosper in your free time. There's day trading and other investing activities. Now I'm looking into two other interests of mine, web designing and personal training to add to my avenues of income. Creating a variety of business opportunities for yourself will make you invulnerable to any economic downturn.

 

[Trip7]

Man this is some good stuff

Last year, my teenaged daughter asked me if I would be disappointed if she became a teacher rather than follow in my steps as a lawyer. I told her that if I had it to do over again, I’d have become a teacher instead myself.
Home by 4, summers off and in my district there are GYM teachers making more than I do.
If I’d gone into teaching after college, I’d be almost 20 years in and could look forward to retiring with a nice pension and healthcare benefits. Instead, after being downsized a few years ago, I have had to add 5 years to my work expectancy plan to make up the pay cut I took.
That said, I will add that I greatly enjoy the legal work I do, I find it intellectually stimulating and challenging but had I known how non-conducive to a good family life law can be, I’d still have chosen teaching instead.

Sound familiar peeps?

I would not do it again. I was unemployed for 9 months after graduating law school, but my loans were due immediately after graduation because I consolidated my loans for a lower interest rate, thus waiving my 6-month grace period. So my loan payments were due immediately after graduation, but I didn’t have a job and hadn’t taken the bar yet. That was a very stressful time - I had to study for bar and try to come up with money to pay my student loans. Luckily, I have only modest law school debt (around $35,000 - not over $100,000 like many people). But law school wasn’t worth it. I came out of undergrad with no student loans, a 3.6 gpa, and could have got a job paying way more than my current job. I came out of law school with debt, a 2.5 gpa, and no job offers. I had to live with my parents and work a minimum wage paying job for 9 months after graduation to pay my student loans. Finally I found my first legal job as a law clerk for a judge, but it paid a mere $25,000 a year. I didn’t go to law school to make that kind of money. I worked there for 9 months until I found my current job. Now I get paid more than $25,000, but its not much moreI would as an attorney.
Also, I was very disappointed in the law school education system. You just read judicial opinions, and when you graduate you don’t know how to do anything.
The one good thing about my current situation is that my current job is not very stressful. Most lawyers I know are stressed out. But I do the same thing every day and have gotten very good at it, so I’m not stressed. Also, I only have to work 40 hours a week. Having a stress free job is great!!!
But I can barely pay my bills. I was in a better situation after graduating from undergrad as an MIS major with a 3.6 gpa and no loans, than I was after graduating law school. Now I have loans to repay and make way less than I ever expected. I am disappointed. But it could be worse - I could be unemployed or working a job with similar pay, but with lots of stress! Having a stress free carreer is worth a lot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No No No! Only pilots make low income at the entry level! I swear they all told me Lawyers start at 100k!

No way I get into this again. You know what they say about insanity being doing the same thing and expecting a different result? I bought all the hype from the law school recruiters about a six-figure starting salary and figured that would easily pay off the six figure debt I would incur in attending. Yeah, this is six years ago and the economy was good. I graduated from a Top Tier institution in the top quater of my class but there were no six-figure jobs to be found. Maybe three people in my class got paid that well. The rest of us were luckky to start in the 50’s. Plus, this profession attracts all of the most loathsome and irritating personality types that exist. Remember that kind all through school who would argue with the teacher and never put his hand down? He’s a lawyer. As others have pointed out, our work creates nothing. It does nothing to contribute to society. We merely leach off of the innovators and entrepreneurs who create and contribute. The legal profession has become a drain on society. Not to mention that the ABA has watered down the quality of the profession by accreditting every institution with a chalk board and a sign. Now I join the others here who have pointed out that we are trapped in a profession that we loathe by insurmountable student debt and few options. I’m thinking of packing it all in and running off to Buenos Aires, honestly.

I could run off to Buenos Aires once every month if I wanted....some months twice!

 

[mattp1803]

I hope Jtrain doesn't read this...

 

[Trip7]

But on the bright side, if you hit it big in law, you hit it REAL BIG.

I think you all are being pretty myopic. The current economy might make the whole law thing seem like a bad investment, but give it time. I went to a top school, got a job that pays big law market salaries, and had my loans paid off in four years. I own (and have significant equity) in a house that is worth $1 million or so, and drive an unbelieveably cool car. So, yeah, financially it worked out fine for me. Now, I graduated 8 years ago, but I don’t think the current economy will hold for too long. (BTW, all of you talking about “ivy” law degrees should realize that 6 of the top 10 schools are not ivy league schools. “Ivy” is something 18 year olds worry about when going to college, and is not a law prestige thing.)

But its seems like many lawyers aspire to hit this level, but very few do. Kinda like getting hired by UPS/FEDEX

Still, I still say do what you love, and never work a day in your life. Personally the Lawyer, Doctor, professions are WAY too much work for the amount of money most of them make.

No, No, No! It is most important to do what you love, enhance your natural talents and abilities, and not just go to law school because you think it is a good graduate degree.
I had a much better job before law school. I find legal work really boring and I don’t like conflict. After law school, I’m not able to find a non-legal job because I’m either overqualified or not appropriately qualified.
Now, I’m finally doing what I love and am happy. I would definitely not go to law school or encourage my children to do so.
My husband is a doctor and he would not encourage our children to become a doc because it is very draining.
I would encourage my children to do whatever they love and we should all do the same. We were all meant to do something and we drifted from that when we went to law school.
Most of the lawyers that I know that are happy love what they do.

Sully and his BS about not encouraging his children to be pilots. I would encourage my children to do whatever they love to do. If its being a pilot, so be it. Just make sure you always fight to get the most compensation and benefits you can. After all the more money the merrier!(when you're doing what you love of course)

 

[Arnie7781]

While on reserve during the slow winter months I avoided work like the plague and was able to add an additional 5 grand of income with outside opportunities. There's direct selling companies like AVON that are easy and cheap to start up and prosper in your free time. There's day trading and other investing activities. Now I'm looking into two other interests of mine, web designing and personal training to add to my avenues of income. Creating a variety of business opportunities for yourself will make you invulnerable to any economic downturn.[/QUOTE]


Just curious...did you make 35k flying + an additional 5k from side jobs (40K) or did you make 30k flying + 5k from side jobs (35k)?

I'll play devil's advocate. Do you see the irony in saying that you can have a decent lifestyle as a pilot, then proceeding to list other ways for pilots' to make money?

 

[Trip7]

While on reserve during the slow winter months I avoided work like the plague and was able to add an additional 5 grand of income with outside opportunities. There's direct selling companies like AVON that are easy and cheap to start up and prosper in your free time. There's day trading and other investing activities. Now I'm looking into two other interests of mine, web designing and personal training to add to my avenues of income. Creating a variety of business opportunities for yourself will make you invulnerable to any economic downturn.

Just curious...did you make 35k flying + an additional 5k from side jobs (40K) or did you make 30k flying + 5k from side jobs (35k)?

I'll play devil's advocate. Do you see the irony in saying that you can have a decent lifestyle as a pilot, then proceeding to list other ways for pilots' to make money?[/QUOTE]

35k base + 3800 per diem(estimated) + 5k outside opportunites(if I don't do anything this fall)= $43,800 or 40k with no per diem. I count per diem as income because IMO if you use it to pay the bills, its income.

I don't see the irony. I'd have a decent lifestyle if I didn't have the motivation to do something else besides play video games or watch movies while on call. I'm a money motivated person and time is money, so I took the initiative to find an opportunity that was flexible enough that if I got called, I could drop everything I was doing and go to the airport. I don't sit around a complain about pay. If i need more money, I go get it.

 

[mattp1803]

35k base + 3800 per diem(estimated) + 5k outside opportunites(if I don't do anything this fall)= $43,800 or 40k with no per diem. I count per diem as income because IMO if you use it to pay the bills, its income.

I don't see the irony. I'd have a decent lifestyle if I didn't have the motivation to do something else besides play video games or watch movies while on call. I'm a money motivated person and time is money, so I took the initiative to find an opportunity that was flexible enough that if I got called, I could drop everything I was doing and go to the airport. I don't sit around a complain about pay. If i need more money, I go get it.

Best attitude right there! Not sure if you've ever read "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" or not, but it's a great book. His mentality, and what I tend to think mine is, is very similar to yours. If you don't have money, find a way to make it for yourself.

 

[Snuggle]

Whoops Im adding in per diem. I'll make 35k this year.

So you made 5k in per diem while being on reserve? That's pretty good though. They use you a lot I assume?

 

[jtrain609]

I hope Jtrain doesn't read this...

The difference between me and these folks is that I'm aware of the pay going in, I'm aware of the debt going in, and I've already got a plan to pay off that debt on $50,000 a year.

I've also got zero interest in big law, and fully intend on becoming a public defender. Pay ain't great, but the benefits are there.

Law, like flying, is what you make of it according to all my friends that are lawyers. I could keep flying for a living, and to be frank in the long run I'd make more money, but I get incredibly bored with flying airplanes (it leaves me too much time to think). I'm the kind of guy that needs a new challenge every day or I go crazy. "Receiving check, at your leisure" five times a day isn't exactly my idea of challenging. Who knows, it may be to somebody else.

 

[mattp1803]

The difference between me and these folks is that I'm aware of the pay going in, I'm aware of the debt going in, and I've already got a plan to pay off that debt on $50,000 a year.

I've also got zero interest in big law, and fully intend on becoming a public defender. Pay ain't great, but the benefits are there.

Law, like flying, is what you make of it according to all my friends that are lawyers. I could keep flying for a living, and to be frank in the long run I'd make more money, but I get incredibly bored with flying airplanes (it leaves me too much time to think). I'm the kind of guy that needs a new challenge every day or I go crazy. "Receiving check, at your leisure" five times a day isn't exactly my idea of challenging. Who knows, it may be to somebody else.

Yeah, that's good. At least you seemed to have been aware of all this before even thinking about going into it. I think as long as you have a plan to pay down your debt, then there shouldn't be any surprises and you will be in good shape.

 

[Trip7]

So you made 5k in per diem while being on reserve? That's pretty good though. They use you a lot I assume?

3800k is what I'm estimating I'll end up with by the end of the year. I had a line in January and then reserve up til now.

The difference between me and these folks is that I'm aware of the pay going in, I'm aware of the debt going in, and I've already got a plan to pay off that debt on $50,000 a year.

I've also got zero interest in big law, and fully intend on becoming a public defender. Pay ain't great, but the benefits are there.

Law, like flying, is what you make of it according to all my friends that are lawyers. I could keep flying for a living, and to be frank in the long run I'd make more money, but I get incredibly bored with flying airplanes (it leaves me too much time to think). I'm the kind of guy that needs a new challenge every day or I go crazy. "Receiving check, at your leisure" five times a day isn't exactly my idea of challenging. Who knows, it may be to somebody else.

What if you dont get a 50k job, and its more like 25k?

 

[C150J]

. "Receiving check, at your leisure" five times a day isn't exactly my idea of challenging. Who knows, it may be to somebody else.

TOTALLY agree with you man, but I want to emphasize that there are ways to expand one's horizons within the airline industry should someone chose to stay. Safety department, sim instructor, IOE/Line Check, line supervisory roles, union committee work, you name it. In fact, I took on additional duties and went from idle hands to running around with my head cut off. Helping manage a safety program has allowed me to even help with the revision of Jeppesen charts and clear a handful of pilots of blame in ATC "he said, she said" battles by reviewing tapes and interviewing crews. Very, very satisfying (have you looked into aviation law? Some of it has potential to be fascinating).

I know you know this, but I want to share with the group.

<3,
J. (haha)