The dark side of the pilot shortage.

ATN_Pilot said:
Never lost an employee, so I think that speaks for itself. As for tenants, I suspect you'd find quite a few who hate our guts. :) Remember, our clients are the landlords, not the tenants. It's our job to be the bad guy on the landlord's behalf. Nobody likes you when you evict them or withhold their deposit for repairs. :)



I think a lot of this comes down to expectations. A lot of Southwest's customers only fly Southwest. Because Southwest's marketing has been so incredibly effective at convincing the consume that they're the cheapest fare (even though they're frequently not), many lower and middle class flyers have never even thought of buying a ticket on one of the legacy carriers. And because their only experience is Southwest, they have nothing to compare it to. Having a bag of peanuts thrown at you by a camp counselor might not seem to bad if you've never had decent service.
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So if you fly much at all, it really makes sense to go with whoever has the most flights out of your local airport because of the loyalty programs. In a lot of cases in smaller markets, this is SWA and their program isn't bad from an economy fare only perspective.
Also your real budget travelers go on sites like expedia and look for the cheapest fare, and could care less who it is.
 
z987k said:
So if you fly much at all, it really makes sense to go with whoever has the most flights out of your local airport because of the loyalty programs. In a lot of cases in smaller markets, this is SWA and their program isn't bad from an economy fare only perspective.
Also your real budget travelers go on sites like expedia and look for the cheapest fare, and could care less who it is.
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Remember, Southwest doesn't put their flights on places like Expedia. They've conned the average traveler into going straight to their web site, because that way the consumer can't compare their fares to the other airlines. It's brilliant marketing. I'll give them that.

As for loyalty programs, I'd argue that Southwest's is next to worthless, because it only gives you access to Southwest flights, which are still almost all domestic. You'll never be able to save up your miles and then use them for a trip to Paris, for example. On Delta, you've got access to 900 destinations, not only on Delta, but also on their partners. And miles can also be used to upgrade to first class, something that Southwest doesn't even offer.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Remember, Southwest doesn't put their flights on places like Expedia. They've conned the average traveler into going straight to their web site, because that way the consumer can't compare their fares to the other airlines. It's brilliant marketing. I'll give them that.

As for loyalty programs, I'd argue that Southwest's is next to worthless, because it only gives you access to Southwest flights, which are still almost all domestic. You'll never be able to save up your miles and then use them for a trip to Paris, for example. On Delta, you've got access to 900 destinations, not only on Delta, but also on their partners. And miles can also be used to upgrade to first class, something that Southwest doesn't even offer.
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Right... but we're talking the average or maybe even below average American. They don't even have a passport nor would they dream about traveling to "rifle drop land" or whatever pejorative they have for France these days. The companion pass is a pretty good deal for their trips to the Florida panhandle or Arizona.
But as dumb as the average American is, I think they've figured out how to use more than one browser tab at once. Maybe not...
 
Southwest's loyalty program has only one redeeming feature, which is the companion pass. Otherwise it's next to worthless. Flying GEG-ATL for $203 would earn you 955 points, with a value of $18.14 toward flights on SWA.

I don't like Delta miles much, but that GEG-ATL flight would earn you 2000 miles (assuming you have no status) with an estimated average value of about $34.

The benefit those real airline miles give you are the partner redemptions. A good redemption for those Skypesos would be a Business Class flight to Paris on Air France for 62.5K miles. This retails at $7337 on Jan 16th, which would give you a 'value' of $235 for the points earned on your $203 Delta flight.
 
z987k said:
Right... but we're talking the average or maybe even below average American. They don't even have a passport nor would they dream about traveling to "rifle drop land" or whatever pejorative they have for France these days. The companion pass is a pretty good deal for their trips to the Florida panhandle or Arizona.
But as dumb as the average American is, I think they've figured out how to use more than one browser tab at once. Maybe not...
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I think you underestimate a lot of people.... just saying.
 
z987k said:
It's the sunshine thought you put in your head to deal with the crap sandwich you're actually eating. There's a handful of ways it might work.
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Dude, you make a lot of assumptions there!
Ok, we have 1st year captains making >100k. Feel free to deny that as long as you want. Personally, I wouldn't define 1st year as "longer term." And it's not just us, I have talked to ATR captains <3 years at other companies who easily clear the 100k threshold.

Secondly, my schedule results in me being home at a decent time in the morning until late afternoon. I spend four nights a week in the some room of the same hotel where have enough time to work out, sit and the hot tub, read, and still have more than 8 hours of sleep. Sure, most of the schedules are crap, but mine isn't

Finally, and most importantly, you assume that I'm trying to put sunshine thoughts in my head. I'm really just trying to take an objective look at things down the road and consider whether I want to go for the "big" money when the time comes and whether the sacrifices of schedule and base will be worth it.
 
Cptnchia said:
av8tr1 said:
I even had a Southwest crew and dispatch hold a plane for me to deal with a weight and balance issue to make sure I could make the flight. Delta would never do that for a jumpseater.
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Gotta throw the BS flag. I do it on a regular basis. I know a bunch of captains that did when I was an FO. We get it. You don’t like Delta. Not every does like them. No problem. Just stick to facts and leave the hyperbole out though. It doesn’t do your argument any good.
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A Southwest gate agent positive spaced me home after my grandmother died. I was in uniform because I went straight from my last IOE trip to be there. He asked if I was commuting home from work and I said no, I was visiting my family and the reason why. He expressed his condolences and handed me two boarding passes and explained that the first leg was wide open but the second leg was close so he just took care of it for me.

I won't say that Delta would never do that since I don't know what they can do, but I don't think anyone could spin that as anything but stellar treatment, except maybe ATN, he can probably explain how I was actually victimized ;) Beyond that, I'm poor so the seats are all the same to me.


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ATN_Pilot said:
I think a lot of this comes down to expectations. A lot of Southwest's customers only fly Southwest. Because Southwest's marketing has been so incredibly effective at convincing the consume that they're the cheapest fare (even though they're frequently not), many lower and middle class flyers have never even thought of buying a ticket on one of the legacy carriers. And because their only experience is Southwest, they have nothing to compare it to. Having a bag of peanuts thrown at you by a camp counselor might not seem to bad if you've never had decent service.
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I agree completely that much of this comes down to expectations, but I still challenge the premise that Southwest is not cheaper than other carriers, especially legacies. Anecdotes aside, the data seems to show that for nearly all overlapping routes, Delta is more expensive. Again, we can attribute some (perhaps all in certain markets) of this to the first class fares, but I don't think that would necessarily make up the gap. And I would argue that even if coach fares are in fact matched, it's most likely the legacy coming down to match Southwest vs. the other way around.

ATN_Pilot said:
As for loyalty programs, I'd argue that Southwest's is next to worthless, because it only gives you access to Southwest flights, which are still almost all domestic. You'll never be able to save up your miles and then use them for a trip to Paris, for example. On Delta, you've got access to 900 destinations, not only on Delta, but also on their partners. And miles can also be used to upgrade to first class, something that Southwest doesn't even offer.
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This is spot on. The loyalty program is really only geared toward leisure travelers that don't venture too far from home. Great for you if you only travel within the Southwest network. If you want to see the rest of the world, you're SOL.
 
nibake said:
Dude, you make a lot of assumptions there!
Ok, we have 1st year captains making >100k. Feel free to deny that as long as you want. Personally, I wouldn't define 1st year as "longer term." And it's not just us, I have talked to ATR captains <3 years at other companies who easily clear the 100k threshold.
.
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You or they are not including per Diem and 401K payments in those pay amounts, are you?
 
ATN_Pilot said:
As for loyalty programs, I'd argue that Southwest's is next to worthless, because it only gives you access to Southwest flights, which are still almost all domestic. You'll never be able to save up your miles and then use them for a trip to Paris, for example. On Delta, you've got access to 900 destinations, not only on Delta, but also on their partners. And miles can also be used to upgrade to first class, something that Southwest doesn't even offer.
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I don't know man. The companion pass and a stack of miles has been pretty cool for my wife and I.

Also, I can't believe I just read this entire thread.
 
nibake said:
Dude, you make a lot of assumptions there!
Ok, we have 1st year captains making >100k. Feel free to deny that as long as you want. Personally, I wouldn't define 1st year as "longer term." And it's not just us, I have talked to ATR captains <3 years at other companies who easily clear the 100k threshold.

Secondly, my schedule results in me being home at a decent time in the morning until late afternoon. I spend four nights a week in the some room of the same hotel where have enough time to work out, sit and the hot tub, read, and still have more than 8 hours of sleep. Sure, most of the schedules are crap, but mine isn't

Finally, and most importantly, you assume that I'm trying to put sunshine thoughts in my head. I'm really just trying to take an objective look at things down the road and consider whether I want to go for the "big" money when the time comes and whether the sacrifices of schedule and base will be worth it.
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You sure you don't work at skywest? That's the only other place I've heard the "I don't have apps in because my QOL is so good here" even though in 3 years at a major you'd have a better QOL and a whole hell of a pot more money.
 
ian said:
You sure you don't work at skywest? That's the only other place I've heard the "I don't have apps in because my QOL is so good here" even though in 3 years at a major you'd have a better QOL and a whole hell of a pot more money.
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False.

Day one of indoc at a major you’d have a better schedule than at OO. At least on the CRJ side.
 
AA34 said:
I don't know man. The companion pass and a stack of miles has been pretty cool for my wife and I.

Also, I can't believe I just read this entire thread.
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SWA's program was the only one I ever got something out of. We flew on all different airlines about evenly matched at my last job but any of them besides SWA the reward always seemed to be right over the next hill. With SWA I didn't pay for a personal flight for almost 3 years, and that's with never quite making it to A-list.
 
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