That Norwegian sure makes a good Pad Thai... Wait...

I find it particularly amusing that the US carriers get trapped with their own policies. See, the airlines-paid lobbyist have succeeded in imposing all kinds of regulations and restrictions to foreign carriers (remember Concorde ?) to somehow protect their markets. They lived fat and happy up until 9/11 less or more, and then European, Asian, Middle Eastern carriers started to grow tired, so they adjusted and started firing back...
 
Pépé le Pilot said:
I find it particularly amusing that the US carriers get trapped with their own policies. See, the airlines-paid lobbyist have succeeded in imposing all kinds of regulations and restrictions to foreign carriers (remember Concorde ?) to somehow protect their markets. They lived fat and happy up until 9/11 less or more, and then European, Asian, Middle Eastern carriers started to grow tired, so they adjusted and started firing back...
Click to expand...

Same here. I find it particularly amusing that we hear people moan about subsidized airlines making "competition" harder for them, when in fact they don't exactly know which kind of subsidies those airline actually get. Its like a slimy car sales person whining about Joe Blow down the road selling more cars. In the end, your customer will take the smile and added service, on time performance and clean airplane over an overworked, bitchy, negative, arrogant and fat stewardess, even if it costs more money.

Take drinks and on-board service for example...

Joe Doe pays $12.00 dollars more to fly international with a European carrier (economy class) than it would have cost me with a U.S. carrier. Start to finish the experience is different, better, more relaxing, from ticket-counter to the seat. Once aboard the airplane, treatment was excellent, with refreshed, fresh people running their cabin as a team. The aircraft was clean & fresh. On time departure with more food and plenty of liquids (alcoholic and non alcoholic) basically on tap, ready for you just for asking. These people go the extra mile for the customer. Now, from a financial aspect, we serve hard (expensive) liquor and wine, beer to economy class passengers. We serve them well prepared, hot food with desserts you can actually recognize. We serve them a hot towel right after departure and right before landing, because we know that being refreshed and properly hydrated passengers feel better. A diabetic will in fact get their special order food. A bigger guy with a bigger appetite will get an extra meal (if one is left over) just for asking.

If you think that this airline can only do that because of government subsidies, have more of the kool aid. Most of the foreign carriers will blow U.S. airlines straight out of the water if you told their employees they wouldn't get paid for this flight. We cannot learn about proper business without having loyal customers. Loyal customers are deserved, they don't fall into our lap. And no, economy class passengers are not cattle, and first class passengers are not better people, they just travel in a different part of the aircraft.
 
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rocketman5150 said:
Foreign carriers subsidized by their respective governments is, by definition, not free market.
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What is the definition of free market?

"A free market is a market structure which is not controlled by a designated authority. A free market contrasts with a controlled market or regulated market, in which government policy intervenes in the setting of prices. An economy composed entirely of free markets is referred to as a free-market economy."

Are the foreign carriers' governments setting prices or are they helping reduce cost by "giving" them tax-break-like subsidies?
 
rocketman5150 said:
Foreign carriers subsidized by their respective governments is, by definition, not free market.
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That's not always the case, I give you some examples: SWISS, Lufthansa (yes it is private now, didn't use to be), Ethiad,.....all airlines in green numbers that have no ties whatsoever with the govt or are subsidized.

Most private airlines in Europe are highly profitable, most of the govt subsidized are not.

In Switzerland it is against the law for the govt to save any company or to help one financially that they don't have shares in it, it's sad but that's the deal, we lost SWISSAIR and bank institutions that were 300 years old...
 
Cessna414JJB said:
Same here. I find it particularly amusing that we hear people moan about subsidized airlines making "competition" harder for them, when in fact they don't exactly know which kind of subsidies those airline actually get. Its like a slimy car sales person whining about Joe Blow down the road selling more cars. In the end, your customer will take the smile and added service, on time performance and clean airplane over an overworked, bitchy, negative, arrogant and fat stewardess, even if it costs more money.

Take drinks and on-board service for example...

Joe Doe pays $12.00 dollars more to fly international with a European carrier (economy class) than it would have cost me with a U.S. carrier. Start to finish the experience is different, better, more relaxing, from ticket-counter to the seat. Once aboard the airplane, treatment was excellent, with refreshed, fresh people running their cabin as a team. The aircraft was clean & fresh. On time departure with more food and plenty of liquids (alcoholic and non alcoholic) basically on tap, ready for you just for asking. These people go the extra mile for the customer. Now, from a financial aspect, we serve hard (expensive) liquor and wine, beer to economy class passengers. We serve them well prepared, hot food with desserts you can actually recognize. We serve them a hot towel right after departure and right before landing, because we know that being refreshed and properly hydrated passengers feel better. A diabetic will in fact get their special order food. A bigger guy with a bigger appetite will get an extra meal (if one is left over) just for asking.

If you think that this airline can only do that because of government subsidies, have more of the kool aid. Most of the foreign carriers will blow U.S. airlines straight out of the water if you told their employees they wouldn't get paid for this flight. We cannot learn about proper business without having loyal customers. Loyal customers are deserved, they don't fall into our lap. And no, economy class passengers are not cattle, and first class passengers are not better people, they just travel in a different part of the aircraft.
Click to expand...

You know what is interesting, that pretty much in any other field the US beats the world on customer service. Companies usually stay behind their products, you can return anything and you get money back if you are not happy. I really haven't seen that anywhere else in the world.
 
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Market has its bonus ! But it usually stops when it considers customers as a sole mean of income for the shareholders. That's usually when things start to go wrong...
 
Cessna414JJB said:
Same here. I find it particularly amusing that we hear people moan about subsidized airlines making "competition" harder for them, when in fact they don't exactly know which kind of subsidies those airline actually get. Its like a slimy car sales person whining about Joe Blow down the road selling more cars. In the end, your customer will take the smile and added service, on time performance and clean airplane over an overworked, bitchy, negative, arrogant and fat stewardess, even if it costs more money.

Take drinks and on-board service for example...

Joe Doe pays $12.00 dollars more to fly international with a European carrier (economy class) than it would have cost me with a U.S. carrier. Start to finish the experience is different, better, more relaxing, from ticket-counter to the seat. Once aboard the airplane, treatment was excellent, with refreshed, fresh people running their cabin as a team. The aircraft was clean & fresh. On time departure with more food and plenty of liquids (alcoholic and non alcoholic) basically on tap, ready for you just for asking. These people go the extra mile for the customer. Now, from a financial aspect, we serve hard (expensive) liquor and wine, beer to economy class passengers. We serve them well prepared, hot food with desserts you can actually recognize. We serve them a hot towel right after departure and right before landing, because we know that being refreshed and properly hydrated passengers feel better. A diabetic will in fact get their special order food. A bigger guy with a bigger appetite will get an extra meal (if one is left over) just for asking.

If you think that this airline can only do that because of government subsidies, have more of the kool aid. Most of the foreign carriers will blow U.S. airlines straight out of the water if you told their employees they wouldn't get paid for this flight. We cannot learn about proper business without having loyal customers. Loyal customers are deserved, they don't fall into our lap. And no, economy class passengers are not cattle, and first class passengers are not better people, they just travel in a different part of the aircraft.
Click to expand...
I swear, some of you guys must not have ever flown on these non-US airlines. You guys make them sound like utopia, but I'm here to tell you, they're not!

Here's how I'd rank foreign carriers I've flown on, often in business class, compared to US airlines:

Bulgaria Air: Awful. Cramped and dirty. Rude flight attendants who scoffed when I spoke English.
Kuwait Airways: Hahaha. No.
Ethiopian: Don't touch anything.
Alitalia: Absolutely not.
Aer Lingus: Good if you enjoy paying €2 for a soda intra-Europe. Long-haul, on-par.
British Airways: Inferior intra-Europe. On-par in long-haul.
Lufthansa: Inferior intra-Europe. On-par in long-haul.
Emirates: Superior.
Singapore: Superior.
Oman Air: Superior.
Korean: On-par intra-Asia. Long-haul, somewhat superior (though I was business class on an A380, so that might be skewed).
Asiana: On-par.
China Airlines: On-par.
JAL: On-par.
ANA: On-par.

Oh, and I just flew with a guy who got out of a Turkish business class seat hating life, but that's second-hand.

My point is, you all would be surprised at just how bad these foreign, state-run airlines can be. One of the things that annoys me on JC is the constant "Everyone outside the US does it better," about well, just about everything. It's not true. Trust me. I'd take a US carrier over many, many foreign carriers, and that comes from personal experience.
 
dasleben said:
Bulgaria Air: Awful. Cramped and dirty. Rude flight attendants who scoffed when I spoke English.
Kuwait Airways: Hahaha. No.
Ethiopian: Don't touch anything.
Alitalia: Absolutely not.
Aer Lingus: Good if you enjoy paying €2 for a soda intra-Europe. Long-haul, on-par.
British Airways: Inferior intra-Europe. On-par in long-haul.
Lufthansa: Inferior intra-Europe. On-par in long-haul.
Emirates: Superior.
Singapore: Superior.
Oman Air: Superior.
Korean: On-par intra-Asia. Long-haul, somewhat superior (though I was business class on an A380, so that might be skewed).
Asiana: On-par.
China Airlines: On-par.
JAL: On-par.
ANA: On-par.
Click to expand...

So my takeaway from your list is that the three superior carriers are heavily state sponsored.

Also that in general, international service tends to be better than domestic, which kind of makes it hard to listen to the people who are comparing their MCI-ORD flight on American with their JFK-FRA flight on Lufthansa.
 
scooter2525 said:
So would re-regulation help keep us airlines competitive?
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To some extent. What regulation would do is keep the pricing structure in line and prevent the new superduper startup who is getting their airplanes for free from a manufacturer (or the Ex-Im Bank) from undercutting established carriers on a specific route with lower ticket pricing. The only way the established carriers can compete is by cutting quality of service as aircraft and crew costs are mostly fixed until you get into contract negotiations or BK. They cram more seats in the plane. They remove meal service and IFE. A regulated market would force everybody to charge the same price (mostly) and stop this specific problem.
 
swisspilot said:
You know what is interesting, that pretty much in any other field the US beats the world on customer service. Companies usually stay behind their products, you can return anything and you get money back if you are not happy. I really haven't seen that anywhere else in the world.
Click to expand...

Not sure if I would say that being able to return crappy items is a high mark of good customer service.
I obviously compare short hop domestics with long range international flying, don't know what I am talking about.
Re-regulating is beyond practicable at this point in time, but I guess the ladies will figure this one out when the time comes.
 
dasleben said:
I swear, some of you guys must not have ever flown on these non-US airlines. You guys make them sound like utopia, but I'm here to tell you, they're not!

Here's how I'd rank foreign carriers I've flown on, often in business class, compared to US airlines:

Bulgaria Air: Awful. Cramped and dirty. Rude flight attendants who scoffed when I spoke English.
Kuwait Airways: Hahaha. No.
Ethiopian: Don't touch anything.
Alitalia: Absolutely not.
Aer Lingus: Good if you enjoy paying €2 for a soda intra-Europe. Long-haul, on-par.
British Airways: Inferior intra-Europe. On-par in long-haul.
Lufthansa: Inferior intra-Europe. On-par in long-haul.
Emirates: Superior.
Singapore: Superior.
Oman Air: Superior.
Korean: On-par intra-Asia. Long-haul, somewhat superior (though I was business class on an A380, so that might be skewed).
Asiana: On-par.
China Airlines: On-par.
JAL: On-par.
ANA: On-par.

Oh, and I just flew with a guy who got out of a Turkish business class seat hating life, but that's second-hand.

My point is, you all would be surprised at just how bad these foreign, state-run airlines can be. One of the things that annoys me on JC is the constant "Everyone outside the US does it better," about well, just about everything. It's not true. Trust me. I'd take a US carrier over many, many foreign carriers, and that comes from personal experience.
Click to expand...

State Run? most of the airlines you listed are private.

What European routes did you flew with LH? last time I flew from Milan to Frankfurt they gave me a warm meal and wine in coach.

Alitalia, an example of European chapter 11 and bad management.

Aer Lingus is a low cost now.

Have flown on over 40 different airlines, I agree with you business class often is on par but coach it's truly an other world if you take a comparable airline outside the US.
 
Cessna414JJB said:
Not sure if I would say that being able to return crappy items is a high mark of good customer service.
I obviously compare short hop domestics with long range international flying, don't know what I am talking about.
Re-regulating is beyond practicable at this point in time, but I guess the ladies will figure this one out when the time comes.
Click to expand...

It's not just being able to return an item, but the overall service you get, especially when calling customer service. In Europe it's often so useless that you just give up and deal with the problem yourself.
 
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