I'm sure management would hate to see those guys leave.
Thank You Glenn Beck!!!!
- Thread starter aloft
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SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
As Gonzo pointed out, the senior guys aren't doing too bad. The problem is getting to be senior. Many pilots didn't choose to get to that point. Imagine a recently upgraded Captain at Eagle on 9/10/01. He's been at Eagle for about 5 years, just got an upgrade. His total time is about 6,000 hours. Bam! 9/11 happens. Now nobody is hiring. He's stuck at Eagle for the next 5 years. That's ten years at Eagle, not by his choosing, but because of outside circumstances. Now hiring starts up again, and he's a 10-year Eagle pilot with 10,000 hours and a $110,000 salary working only 15 days a month. He's obviously imminently qualified for any major airline job, but is it now worth while for him to leave? Most would say no. His career earnings might never recover. Is he "lowering the bar" in your mind?
aloft
New Member
It isn't--if you're only thinking about yourself. The problem is that the contract which provides them with that admittedly decent salary is also the very same one that abuses pilots at the bottom of the totem pole with crappy pay, unreasonable reserve call-out times, endless hours of in-airport reserve, 10 days off a month, etc. So yeah, the $110k/yr lifer IS keeping the bar low for the profession, if maybe not for him/herself.
But wait, these lifers are "hard-working union volunteers"...so where's the disconnect? Oh, it's them.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Newhires at UPS only make $28k their first year. Are the senior UPS pilots keeping the bar low by not leaving also to prove a point to management? Honestly, this is ridiculous. Don't blame the senior pilots for problems at the bottom of the list. Every pilot gets one vote on a contract. The senior few aren't to blame for bad contracts at the regionals.
Gonzo
Well-Known Member
Where do you think they should goto?
There is only a few pilot job that will pay more and none will started at higher pay.
aloft
New Member
Yeah, because we all know the negotiation committee is comprised of 1st and 2nd year FOs.
And yeah, by allowing managment to continue to deduct the cost of newhire training from 1st year pay (which is all they'e really doing), they're not helping matters--and this in an industry allegedly so opposed to PFT. Again, senior guys saying "hey I got mine, sucks to be you!"
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Yeah, because we all know the negotiation committee is comprised of 1st and 2nd year FOs.
The composition of many negotiating committees would surprise you. At my airline, the committee is composed of a mid-seniority CA and two mid-seniority copilots (a mid-seniority copilot has only about 2-3 years of service). Negotiating committees are not the jurisdiction of the most senior pilots. That's an inaccurate stereotype.
But negotiating committees don't approve contracts. The whole pilot group does. For a contract to pass, it has to get a majority vote, and since a majority can't be "senior" by definition, then the senior guys can't be blamed. Everybody gets one vote.
Gonzo
Well-Known Member
Yeah, because we all know the negotiation committee is comprised of 1st and 2nd year FOs.
And yeah, by allowing managment to continue to deduct the cost of newhire training from 1st year pay (which is all they'e really doing), they're not helping matters--and this in an industry allegedly so opposed to PFT. Again, senior guys saying "hey I got mine, sucks to be you!"
You are right, it sucks. But there is no way around it all airlines do it.
ready2fly
Well-Known Member
I like the way you think!
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Maybe I've missed it, but aloft - are you currently at a 121 operator?
I don't think you are, but I can't for the life of me remember what area of the industry you're in right now. Sorry man.
If you're not, it appears obviously clear that you'll never come into the regionals at the present wage structure. Fine, congrats. Job well done! Really.
I think you've made your point pretty well. You're not willing to do it, and you don't support anyone else doing it (at present wage levels). But I disagree that it's necessary to debate the merits of professional pilots moving into the 121 arena, or the merits of a RJ Captain who hasn't ever flown a Boeing or Airbus product prior to commanding his RJ around the skies. You've made your point, or at least I think so.
The end. I think this dead horses was being beat back in page 2.
I don't think you are, but I can't for the life of me remember what area of the industry you're in right now. Sorry man.
If you're not, it appears obviously clear that you'll never come into the regionals at the present wage structure. Fine, congrats. Job well done! Really.
I think you've made your point pretty well. You're not willing to do it, and you don't support anyone else doing it (at present wage levels). But I disagree that it's necessary to debate the merits of professional pilots moving into the 121 arena, or the merits of a RJ Captain who hasn't ever flown a Boeing or Airbus product prior to commanding his RJ around the skies. You've made your point, or at least I think so.
The end. I think this dead horses was being beat back in page 2.
aloft
New Member
It's all in my profile.
On the contrary; still planning on working for a regional soon, once hiring resumes and I'm able to get a bit more multi time. Doesn't mean I'll be happy about the wages, or be silent about it, or not work to improve the situation.
Look, a few of you have missed the forest for the trees here; stop fixating on the little stuff and start focusing on the big stuff. Whether my example was factually correct or not, the bigger picture is still the same: most people have no idea what regional pilots are paid, they assume they're all making 6 figures and it makes most people a little uncomfortable to learn what the real figures are. It's pretty common in every industry but this one for companies who pay low wages to have low-quality employees, and while that's not necessarily the case with airline pilots, it's a perception worth exploiting. Who knows, if people know the pilots of their aircraft are paid less than their 16 year old working the drive thru at In-N-Out, maybe--just maybe--they might be willing to pay more for a ticket.
Otherwise, I'm with Stan: let's all just start working for tips. We'll make a lot more. (Think about it: if every passenger tipped the crew only $5-10 for each leg...that's some decent money.)
Does this mean you've dropped me from your fanclub?
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Of course not man.
I just really didn't see the point in beating your opinion (the dead horse) over and over again.
If the flying public is outraged that pilots only make 20k during the first year, big deal. That's not going to change it.
And - I promise you, they'll still be flying.
The public DOES NOT care.
I just really didn't see the point in beating your opinion (the dead horse) over and over again.
If the flying public is outraged that pilots only make 20k during the first year, big deal. That's not going to change it.
And - I promise you, they'll still be flying.
The public DOES NOT care.
ready2fly
Well-Known Member
Sadly, I agree.
I tell my non-aviation friends how much I make and they'll say "Wow! I had no idea! That sucks!...........what's the lowest rate I can get to XX???"
If it's going to change, it's up to us pilots. But, as is evidenced by this very site, it's damned near impossible to unite us on anything.
tonyw
Well-Known Member
:yeahthat:
Look, if Americans will sell out their countrymen in order to save a few pennies on stuff they buy at Wallyworld, what makes anyone think they give a damn about the wages of the people on an airplane.
They don't.
aloft
New Member
Now see, that's debatable, and the whole point of this thread. I assert that people DO care, or Glenn Beck and Bill Maher wouldn't be wasting airtime with it.
The questions in my mind are: how many people know the truth, how MUCH do they care, and what are they willing to do about it?
Show this to some of your friends and family and see what their reaction is:
Attachments
Soul Brotha'
Off to go do Black guy stuff
Now see, that's debatable, and the whole point of this thread. I assert that people DO care, or Glenn Beck and Bill Maher wouldn't be wasting airtime with it.
The questions in my mind are: how many people know the truth, how MUCH do they care, and what are they willing to do about it?
Show this to some of your friends and family and see what their reaction is:
My brother is in the entertainment industry. He has done well for himself. Nice car, apartment, etc. He probably makes 4X of what I make. Even with our paycuts I'll probably make around 50k this year. Not normal but you need to know how to work the system(read your contract new FOs). Anyhow this S.O.B. had the nerve to ask me for a buddy pass. It just goes to show you, people will pay the cheapest fare no matter what.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Aloft, dude. . .I know what I'll do.
I'm off on Monday. I'm going to head up into the North and South terminals at ATL. Wearing business casual, and no ALPA lanyard, no company ID, no SIDA badge. Nothing that could say "Hey - I'm a 23 year old that will be flying you around on an RJ in a few weeks..."
I'll ask . . .heck, I submit 50 people. Want a larger group? Tell me what number will make you happy.
I'll ask those people what they think about, and if they really care about how old their flight crew is/how little they make, or if they care more about how much it cost to fly from point A to point B.
I'm willing to say that over 90% of them will be far more concerned with the cost of flying, and are willing to put the trust into the system (FAA, Airline management, Airline training) to provide them a safe avenue.
Heck Aloft, you can even pick the options. You tell me how many people, and what the two questions are. . .and I'll let you know what I find out.
In my previous experience in this area, the flying public - and the public at large, just do not care about how little we make or how young some of us may be.
Do YOU honestly care how little our teachers make? Do YOU honestly care how little EMT's make? I doubt it, and don't BS me. . .but we don't really care how much OTHER people make. We put trust into the system. We trust that our educators are well trained (even though some are GED holders) and will provide quality education to our children. We put trust into the people who might save our lives, and expect that hey wouldn't be doing it if they were not appropriately qualified to do so.
Same goes for professional pilots. The people that fly in the back, put trust into the system. No matter how young, or how close to the poverty line we are living. The only thing they know is that "He wouldn't be there if X,Y and Z didn't find him appropriately qualified."
I'm off on Monday. I'm going to head up into the North and South terminals at ATL. Wearing business casual, and no ALPA lanyard, no company ID, no SIDA badge. Nothing that could say "Hey - I'm a 23 year old that will be flying you around on an RJ in a few weeks..."
I'll ask . . .heck, I submit 50 people. Want a larger group? Tell me what number will make you happy.
I'll ask those people what they think about, and if they really care about how old their flight crew is/how little they make, or if they care more about how much it cost to fly from point A to point B.
I'm willing to say that over 90% of them will be far more concerned with the cost of flying, and are willing to put the trust into the system (FAA, Airline management, Airline training) to provide them a safe avenue.
Heck Aloft, you can even pick the options. You tell me how many people, and what the two questions are. . .and I'll let you know what I find out.
In my previous experience in this area, the flying public - and the public at large, just do not care about how little we make or how young some of us may be.
Do YOU honestly care how little our teachers make? Do YOU honestly care how little EMT's make? I doubt it, and don't BS me. . .but we don't really care how much OTHER people make. We put trust into the system. We trust that our educators are well trained (even though some are GED holders) and will provide quality education to our children. We put trust into the people who might save our lives, and expect that hey wouldn't be doing it if they were not appropriately qualified to do so.
Same goes for professional pilots. The people that fly in the back, put trust into the system. No matter how young, or how close to the poverty line we are living. The only thing they know is that "He wouldn't be there if X,Y and Z didn't find him appropriately qualified."
ready2fly
Well-Known Member
I love my brother aloft's optimism. I love his drive. I love his passion for the fight.
I hope he goes balls to the wall when he starts his Part 121 career and he knows that I'm just a short phone call away to join in.
But, like many, I'm just as skeptical that the public really gives a damn.
I hope he goes balls to the wall when he starts his Part 121 career and he knows that I'm just a short phone call away to join in.
But, like many, I'm just as skeptical that the public really gives a damn.