TEB crash 5/15/17

Cherokee_Cruiser said:
I don't think I've ever read an expletive-ridden CVR transcript like this one. The PIC seems to completely lose it at ATC, the vectoring, the spacing, altitude, speed requirements, etc.

# is an expletive:



15:13:10.2 HOT-1
yeah (now) don't # put us at # at four thousand all the # way. what the #? [high pitch, exclaiming].

15:13:16.7 HOT-1
yeah. she's gonna # carry it we-we won't # make it if we got (a) four thousand. she's a # idiot. get us someone else if she can't do it [high pitch, exclaiming].

15:17:38.0 HOT-1
but they got us at # three thousand. really? [high pitch, loudly]. what the # over? [high pitch, loudly] and we're goin’ # south we're not goin’ # north [high pitch, loudly].



The whole flight he's pretty much telling the FO how to fly, like literally how to fly. :eek:
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Everywhere you see #, pick from our easy drop down menu of alternative expletives. Or make up your own!

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Jordan93 said:
How does it work at most of these 135 companies? Is the SIC given a PIC type or is he just a gear swinger? A friend of a friend flies for a small 135 operation and the guy flies like 3 different jets. Do they actually get to fly?
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Depends
I heard horror stories, but fortunately was never a part of one.
I had something like 700 hrs when I got into the right seat of a bizjet pt91. But a) I did my homework and b) the guys in the left seat that were not FSI jet instructors were prior 121 CAs. I flew my every other leg, approaches in IMC, landings and so forth, SIC types only. Most of those SIC things were thorough.
Not once did I feel like I've been put into a situation where I was about to kill us and felt an urge to transfer the controls over to the other guy
 
Jordan93 said:
How does it work at most of these 135 companies? Is the SIC given a PIC type or is he just a gear swinger? A friend of a friend flies for a small 135 operation and the guy flies like 3 different jets. Do they actually get to fly?
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Most of the legit operators PIC type you even if you'e acting as SIC. The not so legit operators will have the lead captain give you the basic SIC. You can darn near get an SIC type in anything. All it takes is three take offs and landing...and some paperwork to the FAA. Most insurance companies won't approve the "SIC" as a crewmember without going to what of the big box flight training facilities though...which doesn't matter anyways when you're the customer that can choose not to use a facility that fails you or uses tough love. It truly is a participate and graduate environment.
 
Jordan93 said:
How does it work at most of these 135 companies? Is the SIC given a PIC type or is he just a gear swinger? A friend of a friend flies for a small 135 operation and the guy flies like 3 different jets. Do they actually get to fly?
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Captain's discretion. I trade left seat days with experienced F/Os unless there's something unusually challenging going on. Newer guys typically fly empty legs until I know what to expect.

I've heard that not everyone does it this way, but most guys I flew with when I was an F/O did.
 
We send SIC for full PIC type at CAE. Then they have to pass IOE with our training captains. Only then are they released to the line. Not all 135/91 take the shortcuts
 
My employer (135) has standardization with full PIC type at time of hire. Followed with IOE, which usually takes a couple weeks to complete the syllabus. Then you hit the line and generally alternate flying days (regardless of live or repo legs) unless it is a high-mins pilot going into a special airport or the captain determines that they should fly that leg. For example - would someone just off of IOE fly a live leg into Aspen when there is wind/ weather/ FICON in play? That’s a game day decision made by the captain.

I’m not one to piss on someone’s grave but this Lear flight should not have ever taken off. Deficiencies all the way around: Radio work, situational awareness, CRM, basic discipline and airmanship, regulations (250KIAS below 10k), etc.
 
CFI A&P said:
My employer (135) has standardization with full PIC type at time of hire. Followed with IOE, which usually takes a couple weeks to complete the syllabus. Then you hit the line and generally alternate flying days (regardless of live or repo legs) unless it is a high-mins pilot going into a special airport or the captain determines that they should fly that leg. For example - would someone just off of IOE fly a live leg into Aspen when there is wind/ weather/ FICON in play? That’s a game day decision made by the captain.

I’m not one to piss on someone’s grave but this Lear flight should not have ever taken off. Deficiencies all the way around: Radio work, situational awareness, CRM, basic discipline and airmanship, regulations (250KIAS below 10k), etc.
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This is what I like to see.

At my part 91 operation when I was in college, it was strict that the FO only flew on empty legs. I was like, what the heck is the difference? I don't give a crap who is in the back, I'm gonna own this regardless. If you've got someone so weak you don't trust them to fly well without the customer in the back, they shouldn't be flying the thing in the first place. "Well, this is what xx does." Thankfully the CP broke that not long before I left.

The first one the CP gave me with the customer in back, he came up front "wow, I've never seen a right seat landing... that was great!" I was proud and graciously acknowledged him, but looking back.... oof. If the customer has never seen a right seat landing....
 
In my experience very few 135 shops do right seat flying (that is, when the F/O is flying he moves to the left seat). The rationale being, I suppose, that no one is going to be in the right seat for very long.

This is, of course, not always the case...
 
Boris Badenov said:
In my experience very few 135 shops do right seat flying (that is, when the F/O is flying he moves to the left seat). The rationale being, I suppose, that no one is going to be in the right seat for very long.

This is, of course, not always the case...
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I'll counter that with if you're not comfortable in both seats in that sort of operation, that is a high threat.
 
PeanuckleCRJ said:
I'll counter that with if you're not comfortable in both seats in that sort of operation, that is a high threat.
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*shrug*. I'm pretty comfortable in both seats, as I sit in the right one say 40% of the time. We just always fly from the left. I think this is partly "because that's how it's always been done" cultural memory issue, partly for the aforementioned "everyone is a Captain in training" reasons, and partly because 135s tend to still fly some airplanes which are old enough that the right seat isn't super-convenient for flying (for example a straight 400 Beechjet, which was intended to be a single pilot airplane...the right side instrumentation is 152-level).

I would be fine with this changing, just a datapoint.
 
As a mobile technician I did some work for sun quest, engine changes and some other stuff. The whole place fell apart at some point. The new version of that 135 is not a place I'd suggest anyone here should go unless you're very desperate, pilot or mechanic. Maybe they'll right the ship, maybe they won't.
 
Boris Badenov said:
Captain's discretion. I trade left seat days with experienced F/Os unless there's something unusually challenging going on. Newer guys typically fly empty legs until I know what to expect.

I've heard that not everyone does it this way, but most guys I flew with when I was an F/O did.
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That’s pretty hodgepodge. Moving to the left seat is one thing, but if they have a full type they should be qualified to alternate every other leg regardless of what’s going on.

Are you babysitting gear flippers or do you have a fully typed ATP FO sitting next to you? Not that what you do is uncommon, it’s very common in 135, it was common practice at 2 of my charter outfits but it’s pretty shade tree to do so. NJA you flew every other leg right off the bat unless high mins factored in.
 
I wonder if this crash will lead to some greater regulation/transparency of the “jet card” industry. It seemed that the customer that booked the live leg prior to the crash was wholly unaware of what operator would be conducting the charter. I would be extremely uncomfortable with that. I know that the idea is that companies like JetSmarter are SUPPOSED to do the due diligence for you. However, that due diligence is whoefully lacking. The ARGUS Gold rating seems like nothing more than a rubber stamp available to an operator willing to pay as long as they have not YET crashed a jet.

I hope this crash, and the Akron crash, leads to stricter and more frequent oversite of 135 operators from the FSDOs and POIs. The behavior, lack of professionalism, lack of standardization, lack of basic airmanship, and overall decorum displayed on this CVR is downright shocking.
 
obx said:
The ARGUS Gold rating seems like nothing more than a rubber stamp available to an operator willing to pay as long as they have not YET crashed a jet.
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If I was understanding and recalling correctly, the Trans Pacific claimed ARGUS Gold but there was no record of it anywhere
 
Inverted25 said:
We send SIC for full PIC type at CAE. Then they have to pass IOE with our training captains. Only then are they released to the line. Not all 135/91 take the shortcuts
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CFI A&P said:
My employer (135) has standardization with full PIC type at time of hire. Followed with IOE, which usually takes a couple weeks to complete the syllabus. Then you hit the line and generally alternate flying days (regardless of live or repo legs) unless it is a high-mins pilot going into a special airport or the captain determines that they should fly that leg. For example - would someone just off of IOE fly a live leg into Aspen when there is wind/ weather/ FICON in play? That’s a game day decision made by the captain.

I’m not one to piss on someone’s grave but this Lear flight should not have ever taken off. Deficiencies all the way around: Radio work, situational awareness, CRM, basic discipline and airmanship, regulations (250KIAS below 10k), etc.
Click to expand...

This is how it's done at my gig. But I also work for a reputable operator that has checks and balances.
 
ARGUS is literally nothing more than how much you’re willing to pay to have them stamp a rating on you. Lots of companies fake it. I actually tried to get my first charter outfit ARGUS platinum and the company couldn’t psss the audit. The audit you ask? Just proving that you do things by the book via paperwork, then you pay a huge fee.

Ad hoc charter seems to really be attached to ARGUS and WYVERN but the larger and ironically, safer companies (NetJets, Flexjet, XO etc.) don’t participate in it at all.
 
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