TEB crash 5/15/17

Richman said:
NOT a fan of the NTSB releasing CVR transcripts. I think everyone would be much better served if they treated it like the Canadian TSB and consider CVRs highly privileged.
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CVR (recording itself) is privileged. Not the transcript. A couple actual voice recordings have been leaked online (Comair at LEX for example) but usually SOP at NTSB is not to release the recording.

I like reading the transcripts. I really think it paints a far better picture than just words summarized up in a couple paragraphs on the final report.
 
Although not in the docket yet, the toughest read is the "Survival Factors - Injury Chart" . Very thorough detailed descriptions of the human remains and cause of death.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
CVR (recording itself) is privileged. Not the transcript. A couple actual voice recordings have been leaked online (Comair at LEX for example) but usually SOP at NTSB is not to release the recording.

I like reading the transcripts. I really think it paints a far better picture than just words summarized up in a couple paragraphs on the final report.
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The Canadian TSB treats all parts of the CVR as privileged, including the transcript.

IMHO, this is nothing more that surfing Youtube for traffic accident dashcam videos.
 
Richman said:
NOT a fan of the NTSB releasing CVR transcripts. I think everyone would be much better served if they treated it like the Canadian TSB and consider CVRs highly privileged.
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What's the harm? There's a great deal of benefit. If I'd never read any other transcript, I would still have learned a lot from having read just this one.
 
hammerhat said:
Investigation interviews shed some light on the operation. Looks like the crew dynamics was a disaster. At the same time the FO struggled with the most basic stuff like talking on the radios. He was hired as a SIC-0 which means "No touching the controls!" So he ended up logging 100 hours in the Lear but had no idea how to start the engines and almost failed recurrent. Is stuff like this typical in 135 world?

Full text here:
https://dms.ntsb.gov/public/60000-60499/60373/611461.pdf
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The CRM on display here is very typical of all 91 and 135 flight departments that I have been involved with. Sadly it will only get worse as the pool of available pilots diminishes. The bottom feeder 135s will be affected first but I feel 135 will be in a very bad way in a few years.
 
Richman said:
Personally, had I read it, I wouldn't learn anything that I couldn't learn from reading the final report from the NTSB, which I am sure will include a synopsis.

I'm sure the pilots had relatives. All it does is to drag a crew's final words through the mud to satisfy the morbid curiosity of the buzzards in the peanut gallery.

Don't get me wrong...I think highly of the NTSB, but I've been through AI school...the way the Canadian's handle this issue is MUCH better with a far better sensibility.
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Sensibility? Or Sensitivity?
I appreciate the sentiment with regard to any vultures who might put this information to bad use.

But in terms of learning anything - particularly by experienced practitioners - primary source material is the best source material.
 
BEEF SUPREME said:
The CRM on display here is very typical of all 91 and 135 flight departments that I have been involved with. Sadly it will only get worse as the pool of available pilots diminishes. The bottom feeder 135s will be affected first but I feel 135 will be in a very bad way in a few years.
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I would argue it's out there. I don't think it's typical. Then again, all I have is my own experience in one cockpit at a time with one other pilot, and I won't allow bad behavior. So I guess I really don't know and am just hoping this is not the way it typically plays. That transcript rattled me.
 
milleR said:
I agree with @Richman

While the CVR transcripts are somewhat interesting from a bit of a macabre standpoint, they don't reveal anything that can't be explained through a detailed narrative, and instead paint the pilots in a very singular light that doesn't encompass anything outside of that specific event.

This is the TSB report from a friends accident a couple years ago for anybody that hasn't see a Canadian report before. I think it does a fine job of painting an accurate picture without revealing the word for word dialogue of the event. I feel like it's a more respectful representation of the pilots as individuals anyway.

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/aviation/2016/a16a0032/a16a0032.asp
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That was the L'Affair du LaPierre, no?
That report is academic. It lets you know that they were behind the airplane, but it gives no sense of any non-aviation, non-sterile, or completely FUBAR activities that might have been taking place. This plane was out of Quebec, and we all know what those loony Québecquois get up to. ;)
 
Crop Duster said:
That was the L'Affair du LaPierre, no?
That report is academic. It lets you know that they were behind the airplane, but it gives no sense of any non-aviation, non-sterile, or completely FUBAR activities that might have been taking place. This plane was out of Quebec, and we all know what those loony Québecquois get up to. ;)
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I was personal friends with the PIC. The report sums up all the "loony Québecquois" they could have been up to.
 
milleR said:
I agree with @Richman

While the CVR transcripts are somewhat interesting from a bit of a macabre standpoint, they don't reveal anything that can't be explained through a detailed narrative, and instead paint the pilots in a very singular light that doesn't encompass anything outside of that specific event.

This is the TSB report from a friends accident a couple years ago for anybody that hasn't see a Canadian report before. I think it does a fine job of painting an accurate picture without revealing the word for word dialogue of the event. I feel like it's a more respectful representation of the pilots as individuals anyway.

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/aviation/2016/a16a0032/a16a0032.asp
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"The reason for protecting CVR material lies in the premise that these protections help ensure that pilots will continue to express themselves freely and that this essential material is available for the benefit of safety investigations."

While I can appreciate their intention, is any pilot really thinking about what's on the CVR - at least before things go FUBAR?
 
milleR said:
I was personal friends with the PIC. The report sums up all the "loony Québecquois" they could have been up to.
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That was a joke based on the many Québecquois it has been my pleasure to know. No offense was meant.
I was just about to jump back in for an edit when you posted. The edit was going to be, "This was a completely different kind of accident, or at least that's the impression one gets from reading the report. What if it had not been? How would a Canadian report make the TEB deal sound? Would it say something like, 'the pilots were distracted by non-aviation related conversation.'? Somehow that just does not convey the enormity of what occurred during that TEB approach." Then again, Canadians would probably never act as boorishly as that Northern Mexican crew at TEB did; they're too polite, eh? :p:)
Sorry you lost your friend.
 
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Crop Duster said:
That was a joke based on the many Québecquois it has been my pleasure to know. No offense was meant.
I was just about to jump back in for an edit when you posted. The edit was going to be, "This was a completely different kind of accident, or at least that's the impression one gets from reading the report. What if it had not been? How would a Canadian report make the TEB deal sound? Would it say something like, 'the pilots were distracted by non-aviation related conversation.'? Somehow that just does not convey the enormity of what occurred during that TEB approach." Then again, Canadians would probably never act as boorishly as the TEB crew did; they're too polite, eh? :p:)
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That's fair, and I appreciate what you were getting at. I shot from the hip because I find the whole CVR release distasteful so I apologize for that.

Honestly, I think the way the TSB formats their reports encompasses all of the relevant elements to an accident while maintaining an element of privacy to the people that were actually driving at the time. Regarding the TEB accident, I suspect we would read a detailed narrative of the entire flight with the poor CRM, training, communication, situational awareness et al explained in each of the different component sections. There would be no question about what led to the accident, but the pilots wouldn't have their final words published to the world at large.
 
Crop Duster said:
BEEF SUPREME said:
The CRM on display here is very typical of all 91 and 135 flight departments that I have been involved with. Sadly it will only get worse as the pool of available pilots diminishes. The bottom feeder 135s will be affected first but I feel 135 will be in a very bad way in a few years.
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I would argue it's out there. I don't think it's typical. Then again, all I have is my own experience in one cockpit at a time with one other pilot, and I won't allow bad behavior. So I guess I really don't know and am just hoping this is not the way it typically plays. That transcript rattled me.
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Like I said it’s been at every employer I’ve worked for until I switched to 121. Thankfully that only two 91 and two 135 departments.

Now it’s nonexistent because I fly 121


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
milleR said:
That's fair, and I appreciate what you were getting at. I shot from the hip because I find the whole CVR release distasteful so I apologize for that.

Honestly, I think the way the TSB formats their reports encompasses all of the relevant elements to an accident while maintaining an element of privacy to the people that were actually driving at the time. Regarding the TEB accident, I suspect we would read a detailed narrative of the entire flight with the poor CRM, training, communication, situational awareness et al explained in each of the different component sections. There would be no question about what led to the accident, but the pilots wouldn't have their final words published to the world at large.
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I get that, but it would be academic and sterile. It would give little sense of how messed up things really were in that cockpit. I just don't think poor behavior, especially poor communication can be fully understood without the actual language, the actual words in the order and at the intervals in which they were uttered. It would be like reading a novel without dialog, or listening to a summary of a song.
 
Crop Duster said:
I get that, but it would be academic and sterile. It would give little sense of how messed up things really were in that cockpit. I just don't think poor behavior, especially poor communication can be fully understood without the actual language, the actual words in the order and at the intervals in which they were uttered. It would be like reading a novel without dialog, or listening to a summary of a song.
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*General statement about CVR's, not specific to this particular accident*

But it doesn't add anything. We've all been in dysfunctional crew situations at some point, we've all put ourselves in a corner, we've all screwed up; when things go south it's relatable enough through an objective analysis from a professional third party.

I would challenge anyone here to simply record a flight and then listen to it afterwards.

Context. Is. Everything.

And when the context is a fatal accident then every single word gets read in that context, regardless of the background.

Again, this is about the privacy of the flight crew. Nothing is gained from reading a CVR transcript IMO when it can get professionally analyzed and the relevant points disseminated through a professional body. Personally, I hate that this particular CVR is the only insight I have into either of these two individuals personalties or professional comportment.
 
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