Teaching Things The Right Way

[Malko]

Re: RESPECT MY AUTHORITAAYYYYY!

It was a joke, but apparently a bad one.

If you read enough of my posts, it's quite obvious that I don't know squat.

Don't sell yourself short. Who else do you know could go to BestBuy after a late night hot tub fest in Vegas and say with a straight face "I am not sure how, but there appears to be mositure in my camera" and then....get the camera replaced. That takes mad skillz !!!!:nana2:

 

[desertdog71]

That's a friggin' ridiculous thing to say. You've gone way overboard in the last couple of days man.

Go read a friggin' book. I'm not sayin' you don't have any idea what you're talking about, but what you're forgetting about in this instance is that if you call it anything besides "Departure" leg, YOU'RE WRONG!

You're not an autonamton for following the regs.

Now step off your high horse, and go sleep it off.

Ok, and what part of my statement has anything to do with calling something a departure leg? Perhaps it is you that needs to read a book.

This was in reference to your statment saying that a simple yes or no sir is in order when speaking to your CFI.

You have got to be kidding me. Are that much of a panty waist that you simply obey on command? What if your Captain busts minimums when you are employed somewhere down the road? Are you gonna be a good little FO and say nothing? Or are you going to sack up and be a man?

now back to your regularly scheduled bashing. :argue:

 

[deserteaglle]

Ok, and what part of my statement has anything to do with calling something a departure leg? Perhaps it is you that needs to read a book.

This was in reference to your statment saying that a simple yes or no sir is in order when speaking to your CFI.

You have got to be kidding me. Are that much of a panty waist that you simply obey on command? What if your Captain busts minimums when you are employed somewhere down the road? Are you gonna be a good little FO and say nothing? Or are you going to sack up and be a man?

now back to your regularly scheduled bashing. :argue:

This is the what I mean. You're looking for a fight.

I didn't deliver my post towards you at all, and I WAS talking about the departure and upwind subject. I said that when you ARE WRONG nothing but a Yes or No is acceptable. You pulled that other stuff out of your uh* ahem* FAT ASS.

Your FO analogy was crap, you were the one advocating the backing up of a wrong opinion if you're PIC.

I am having to try really hard to remain civil after you calling me a pantywaste and saying I'm not a man...after hearing childish trash like that I'm quite tempted to say something about you needing to quit posting and go pick up a couple more fried burritos at the truck stop.

I can't even believe I'm responding to you, I should just trust that you're going to read this later and hopefully ask yourself what put you in such a bad mood today.

 

[desertdog71]

This is the what I mean. You're looking for a fight.

I didn't deliver my post towards you at all, and I WAS talking about the departure and upwind subject. I said that when you ARE WRONG nothing but a Yes or No is acceptable. You pulled that other stuff out of your uh* ahem* FAT ASS.

Your FO analogy was crap, you were the one advocating the backing up of a wrong opinion if you're PIC.

I am having to try really hard to remain civil after you calling me a pantywaste and saying I'm not a man...after hearing childish trash like that I'm quite tempted to say something about you needing to quit posting and go pick up a couple more fried burritos at the truck stop.

I can't even believe I'm responding to you, I should just trust that you're going to read this later and hopefully ask yourself what put you in such a bad mood today.

Those truckstop Burrito's mad me a little gassy today.

If you read my posts I never advocated doing things incorrectly, nor did I say that it doesn't matter what you call a particular part of the pattern. You can spin this however you like, it makes no difference to me.

 

[deserteaglle]

If you read my posts I never advocated doing things incorrectly,

But you DID start name calling because I said you shouldn't argue when you do something wrong.

If YOU go back and read you'll see I only said that you shouldn't argue WHEN YOU ARE WRONG. How can anyone disagree with that?

 

[desertdog71]

But you DID start name calling because I said you shouldn't argue when you do something wrong.

If YOU go back and read you'll see I only said that you shouldn't argue WHEN YOU ARE WRONG. How can anyone disagree with that?

I can see how you could interpret my posts as a personal attack, and I apologize if that is how you feel about it.

I also misread your post, and apparently glanced over the WHEN YOU ARE WRONG part.

 

[caliginousface]

So when you guys announce position, do you say "Skychicken 6SP departure leg rwy 20"? When I was first taught in Van Nuys I learned the first leg as the departure leg, but I ended up moving up to SJ before I was able to go to an uncontrolled field down there. So yeah i've always used upwind.

And for you guys with captains or who are captains, if the captain does bust mins and keeps going do you say "no we're going missed damn it" or do you report it to higher ups?

 

[deserteaglle]

I can see how you could interpret my posts as a personal attack, and I apologize if that is how you feel about it.

I also misread your post, and apparently glanced over the WHEN YOU ARE WRONG part.

Good show, no problem man.

 

[Ian_J]

Does anyone here say:

Anytown traffic, Cessna 234 taking off runway 10, left closed traffic, anytown traffic.

??

I kind of stayed out of the whole upwind/ departure debate because this is what I say before takeoff. Negates the use of upwind or departure.

Now I can see that's a whole bunch more wordy than simply using departure leg/ upwind leg... perhaps its time for a change!

 

[Stone Cold]

Does anyone here say:

Anytown traffic, Cessna 234 taking off runway 10, left closed traffic, anytown traffic.

??

I kind of stayed out of the whole upwind/ departure debate because this is what I say before takeoff. Negates the use of upwind or departure.

Now I can see that's a whole bunch more wordy than simply using departure leg/ upwind leg... perhaps its time for a change!

I use(d) everything you said when departing an uncontrolled field, except, I never say taking off...I always say departing Rwy XX. Just a personal thing. Now, in the middle of the night, it's much more abbreviated .

 

[Ian_J]

Come to think of it, I think I say departing too.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

That being said, I never said we should teach students to say "upwind" as opposed to "departure". And my idea of changing the AIM was a bit of an exaggeration.

I hate to bring this up when you are having so much fun, but can someone tell me exactly what there is to change?

AIM Pilot/Controller Glossary
==============================
TRAFFIC PATTERN - The traffic flow that is prescribed for aircraft landing at, taxiing on, or taking off from an airport. The components of a typical traffic pattern are upwind leg, crosswind leg, downwind leg, base leg, and final approach.
a. Upwind Leg- A flight path parallel to the landing runway in the direction of landing.
b. Crosswind Leg- A flight path at right angles to the landing runway off its upwind end.
c. Downwind Leg- A flight path parallel to the landing runway in the direction opposite to landing. The downwind leg normally extends between the crosswind leg and the base leg.
d. Base Leg- A flight path at right angles to the landing runway off its approach end. The base leg normally extends from the downwind leg to the intersection of the extended runway centerline.
e. Final Approach. A flight path in the direction of landing along the extended runway centerline. The final approach normally extends from the base leg to the runway. An aircraft making a straight-in approach VFR is also considered to be on final approach.
==============================

 

[deserteaglle]

I hate to bring this up when you are having so much fun, but can someone tell me exactly what there is to change?

a. Upwind Leg- A flight path parallel to the landing runway in the direction of landing.

The key here is "parallel". Which means that it is in the same direction as the runway, but the runway and the parallel upwind leg do not intersect.


Aren't words fun? :insane:

 

[ffccfi]

If you think your CFI doesn't talk about your mistakes with other CFI's, you're dead wrong. It's how we deal with it.

So, if you feel uncomfortable about it, maybe you shouldn't hang out in the CFI corner. That's almost like sitting in the teachers' lounge and complaining that they talk about students.

So this whole post is basically about being a professional. This does not come across to me as professional behavior. Now I'm not going to say I have never done this, but you don't see me going around and complaining about other people's non professional behavior.

The way that I see it is you think you get to pick and choose what you are required to do professionally. So if you are going to get upset because other people sound like fools on the radio because it is not professional and its not exactly the way the aims states then you probably should not talk about your students behind their backs.

Finally this whole discussion on radio phraseology is dumb. First of all it is your responsibility to know where traffic is in the pattern by visually looking. I don't know about you but I never trusted other people to tell me where they were in the pattern. Sure it makes it nice but that should not be how you are looking for traffic. Then second teach your students to think out side of the box. I have found the CFIs that teach everything by the book tend to be the ones that have students who freak out when things don't go as planned and they have no checklist or book to tell them what to do.

So basically I'm asking people to get off their high horses, come down to earth, pick and choose your battles and enjoy flying!

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

The key here is "parallel". Which means that it is in the same direction as the runway, but the runway and the parallel upwind leg do not intersect.


Aren't words fun? :insane:

They are. Especialy in 3 dimensions. Flying along at 1000 AGL directly above the runway is also parallel to it.

 

[flyguy]

They are. Especialy in 3 dimensions. Flying along at 1000 AGL directly above the runway is also parallel to it.

Although I don't disagree, the definition of both departure and final legs specify that they are over the extended runway center line and upwind is only specified as parellel.

 

[deserteaglle]

They are. Especialy in 3 dimensions. Flying along at 1000 AGL directly above the runway is also parallel to it.

The plane is in a 3-D world...NOT the runway.

Try landing on the bottom/side of the runway. Good one though, I really thought you had me for a second.

 

[Dugie8]

The plane is in a 3-D world...NOT the runway.

Try landing on the bottom/side of the runway. Good one though, I really thought you had me for a second.

Someday, you too will discover that gravity is oh so unforgiving at 10 feet.

 

[deserteaglle]

Someday, you too will discover that gravity is oh so unforgiving at 10 feet.

I don't think you're getting what I'm saying.

BTW, what happened to Vader? You seemed so much more intimidating with him staring at me.

 

[deserteaglle]

Three-dimensional-"Of, relating to, having, or existing in three dimensions."

An aircraft in flight meets this criteria, a runway never does.