mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
desertdog71 said:
No picking battles in my house. If she mouths off, she'll get a backhand.
Teaching Things The Right Way
- Thread starter mtsu_av8er
- Start date
No picking battles in my house. If she mouths off, she'll get a backhand.
desertdog71
Girthy Member
mtsu_av8er said:No picking battles in my house. If she mouths off, she'll get a backhand.
This is why my wife calls me Red Foreman, I use the foot in ass line quite often around here.
jrh
Well-Known Member
Wow. What a thread.
I have to admit, I'm with flyguy on this one...an instructor has to pick his (or her) battles.
Since somewhere along the line we started comparing logbooks, I'll address that off the start--I have about 450 hours dual given, mostly with private and instrument students, with a few commercial students, BFRs, and IPCs thrown in. Is that high time or low time or somewhere in the middle? I don't know, and I don't really care, but at least you have an idea of where I'm coming from.
From the instructing I've done, I've learned an important lesson...no pilot is perfect. If you try to make them perfect, you'll probably wear yourself out and get them pissed off at you. What I strive for is to make them safe and professional. I definitely have my pet peeves about phraseology, using checklists, and many others, but the fact still remains, I can't produce a perfect pilot, and I don't try. That's right, I'll say it again--I don't try. What I do try to do is develop a pilot who has high (but not necessarily perfect) skills, but more importantly, thinks about what they're doing and continues improving their skills long after they stop training with me. I think that's a much more critical long-term goal.
I completely agree with Lloyd in principle. Instructors should (and do) represent a higher level of flying. Instructors should always strive for perfection. But there's a difference between the end goal and the present reality, and we have to consider that. An instructor has to be practical in the way they teach, and that's how I read flyguy's comments.
To reference the discussion on "upwind" vs. "departure" leg of the pattern, I have to admit, I learned something new. I'd never even thought about it before. I just thought the two words could pretty much be used interchangeably. So after looking at the issue, I agree with Lloyd that there is a right way and a wrong way to do it, but I also thought to myself, "I can't believe people are getting in an argument over something this trivial." In the real world, there are SO many bigger issues to deal with. If I had to pick something to get bent out of shape over, it would not be anything remotely close to "upwind" vs. "departure." I wouldn't go so far as to say we should change the AIM, but come on...can't we let anything slide?
As far as your "attitude" goes, Lloyd...I'd like to meet you in person. I have no doubt we'd get along fine in person and you seem like a good guy when it comes down to it. That being said, I've also read some of your posts as a bit biting, or condescending, or preachy, or something. It's hard to put my finger on. It might just be the fact that we're typing instead of talking, so I can't use tone of voice or facial expressions to pick up on what you're really meaning. Maybe it's because I'm not much into putting quick, one line comments up on this board. If I post, I do it because I really have some hard information or detailed comments to say. It seems like anything less than that can easily get misinterpretted.
That's my $.02 on things.
I have to admit, I'm with flyguy on this one...an instructor has to pick his (or her) battles.
Since somewhere along the line we started comparing logbooks, I'll address that off the start--I have about 450 hours dual given, mostly with private and instrument students, with a few commercial students, BFRs, and IPCs thrown in. Is that high time or low time or somewhere in the middle? I don't know, and I don't really care, but at least you have an idea of where I'm coming from.
From the instructing I've done, I've learned an important lesson...no pilot is perfect. If you try to make them perfect, you'll probably wear yourself out and get them pissed off at you. What I strive for is to make them safe and professional. I definitely have my pet peeves about phraseology, using checklists, and many others, but the fact still remains, I can't produce a perfect pilot, and I don't try. That's right, I'll say it again--I don't try. What I do try to do is develop a pilot who has high (but not necessarily perfect) skills, but more importantly, thinks about what they're doing and continues improving their skills long after they stop training with me. I think that's a much more critical long-term goal.
I completely agree with Lloyd in principle. Instructors should (and do) represent a higher level of flying. Instructors should always strive for perfection. But there's a difference between the end goal and the present reality, and we have to consider that. An instructor has to be practical in the way they teach, and that's how I read flyguy's comments.
To reference the discussion on "upwind" vs. "departure" leg of the pattern, I have to admit, I learned something new. I'd never even thought about it before. I just thought the two words could pretty much be used interchangeably. So after looking at the issue, I agree with Lloyd that there is a right way and a wrong way to do it, but I also thought to myself, "I can't believe people are getting in an argument over something this trivial." In the real world, there are SO many bigger issues to deal with. If I had to pick something to get bent out of shape over, it would not be anything remotely close to "upwind" vs. "departure." I wouldn't go so far as to say we should change the AIM, but come on...can't we let anything slide?
As far as your "attitude" goes, Lloyd...I'd like to meet you in person. I have no doubt we'd get along fine in person and you seem like a good guy when it comes down to it. That being said, I've also read some of your posts as a bit biting, or condescending, or preachy, or something. It's hard to put my finger on. It might just be the fact that we're typing instead of talking, so I can't use tone of voice or facial expressions to pick up on what you're really meaning. Maybe it's because I'm not much into putting quick, one line comments up on this board. If I post, I do it because I really have some hard information or detailed comments to say. It seems like anything less than that can easily get misinterpretted.
That's my $.02 on things.
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
jrh said:
So, who defines what is trivial, and what is not? I think that flying in the traffic pattern at 300 feet is cool, and I can do it safely - is that trivial? Where do we draw the line?
I'm sorry that you take them as such. I'm not trying to be preachy at all. However, if something is wrong, it's wrong. As I said in the post before, if you're ok with intentionally doing things wrong because it's convenient for you, that's fine!
Let me say, however, that some of you have said that there's nothing unsafe about the incorrect terminology.
I know that I've had people pop up in front of me on the departure leg, claiming to be on the upwind. Why should I be in danger because they don't know how to do it correctly?
Or, maybe I'm just being preachy.
flyguy
Well-Known Member
I can't believe I'm saying this yet again, but for the last time, the departure leg of the traffic pattern is commonly referred to as the upwind leg. I know it is not correct terminology, but surely by now you must have figured out that many people misuse the terms. With that in mind, if you hear someone announce they are on the upwind, you should not assume that they are as savy on the radio as you Lloyd. If they say they are on upwind, get the hell away from the departure leg, or at least querry the other pilot. If your obsession with correct terminology is actually at a point where you will deliberately continue on the departure leg, just to spite the other pilot's misuse of the word upwind, then you are very unsafe, and I sure hope I never have to share a traffic pattern with you.mtsu_av8er said:
Chris_Ford
Well-Known Member
Okay Lloyd, I'm going to shoot 100% straight here, no snide remarks or sarcasm or hyperbole.
In the thread about upwind vs. departure leg, the core issue was rather trivial (much in the same sense that the "with you" debate over at FI was). Misusing the term is incorrect (and you'll note in the thread I mistakenly thought you had said otherwise, then apologized, and you snapped at me, but yeah). However, much like "with you", if you say it, nobody dies, nobody gets hurt, people generally will understand what you're talking about. It seemed, however, that it became a huge issue (mountain out of a molehill) for both sides. However, a tone of "I know it's right, and you're stupid" came through (and I'm not saying that someone didn't instigate it). But seeing as we're all professionals, that attitude should be fought as much as possible. Have you not ever been in a situation where you could swear the answer was X when it was really Y? It's happened to me plenty of times. The proper response is to cite a source and say "here's the proof." If they still disagree, let 'em, and move on. Being professional is the key here, in the debate between CFIs, teach the young padawan, don't slap them in the face.
EX:
You: "I think A"
Someone else: "I'm pretty sure it's B"
You: "Here's why it's A (appropriate AIM/FAR sources). If you can find a source that contradicts it, let me know"
Them: "Well, I perceive it as ______"
You: "Okay, here's why I perceive it as A..."
Etc. That's the way to debate it, rather than
1) "I know it's A"
2) "I know it's B"
1) "You're stupid, it's A"
2) "No you're stupid, it's B"
Just my $0.02
In the thread about upwind vs. departure leg, the core issue was rather trivial (much in the same sense that the "with you" debate over at FI was). Misusing the term is incorrect (and you'll note in the thread I mistakenly thought you had said otherwise, then apologized, and you snapped at me, but yeah). However, much like "with you", if you say it, nobody dies, nobody gets hurt, people generally will understand what you're talking about. It seemed, however, that it became a huge issue (mountain out of a molehill) for both sides. However, a tone of "I know it's right, and you're stupid" came through (and I'm not saying that someone didn't instigate it). But seeing as we're all professionals, that attitude should be fought as much as possible. Have you not ever been in a situation where you could swear the answer was X when it was really Y? It's happened to me plenty of times. The proper response is to cite a source and say "here's the proof." If they still disagree, let 'em, and move on. Being professional is the key here, in the debate between CFIs, teach the young padawan, don't slap them in the face.
EX:
You: "I think A"
Someone else: "I'm pretty sure it's B"
You: "Here's why it's A (appropriate AIM/FAR sources). If you can find a source that contradicts it, let me know"
Them: "Well, I perceive it as ______"
You: "Okay, here's why I perceive it as A..."
Etc. That's the way to debate it, rather than
1) "I know it's A"
2) "I know it's B"
1) "You're stupid, it's A"
2) "No you're stupid, it's B"
Just my $0.02
desertdog71
Girthy Member
Oh, and by the way Lloyd. That invitation to eat Barbeque at Miami County Airport is still on the table.
deserteaglle
New Member
Somebody said something about picking battles with your students...I've never had a "battle" with my instructor. I do something wrong, he tells me, and I do what I have to to do it right next time.
How is someone going to argue with their instructor, when their instructor who obviously has much more experience than them, tells them their radio procedures are wrong?
Like I said, that shouldn't be a battle, that should be a, "Yes, Mam/Sir."
How is someone going to argue with their instructor, when their instructor who obviously has much more experience than them, tells them their radio procedures are wrong?
Like I said, that shouldn't be a battle, that should be a, "Yes, Mam/Sir."
jrh
Well-Known Member
Common sense defines what is trivial. Some people have more of it than others. Does everything in flying (or life, for that matter) need to be spelled out word for word?mtsu_av8er said:
I'm going to say that a reasonable person, with a reasonable amount of common sense, under a reasonable situation, would consider the difference between "upwind" and "departure" to be trivial. The same test could be applied to most things in flying. If you disagree with that, that's ok, but we'll have to agree to disagree then.
mtsu_av8er said:
Haha...ok, that's exactly the sort of tone I was referring too. If you go around telling people that they're "intentionally doing things wrong because it's convenient," it sounds very accusatory (sp?) and not very open to any sort of discussion. Whether you're right or wrong, it doesn't make you sound like a nice guy. You're framing the argument to suit your point of view in order to "win."
Of course nobody is going to stand up and say, "Yes, I love intentionally doing things the wrong way," so it looks like you won the argument. But you're missing the point. What you call "intentionally doing things the wrong way," another equally competent pilot might refer to as "this isn't a big deal, I'm not going to tear my hair out over every little detail." There are other valid viewpoints besides your own. When you say things like this, it sounds like "My way is the only way and I'm 100% right." That's why people accuse you of being a know it all or arrogant or whatever it is you have been accused of.
That reminds me of something else I've learned from instructing--very few things are black and white. It's impossible to say every pilot needs to know this, this, and that, nothing more, nothing less. Flying just doesn't work like that.
Of course I do my best to teach things correctly and completely, but there is a lot to think about when flying. You can only cover so much in a segment of training and see so much improvement in a student. You have to prioritize what *really* matters and what is just nice to see, icing on the cake so to speak. There have been times when I've let a few things slide with students because I want to focus on more important habits. If I nitpick every little detail, the important stuff will get lost in the torrent of advice and the student will be worse off than if I'd let the little things slide. It's all for the greater good of creating a safe, competent, well-rounded pilot.
jrh
Well-Known Member
deserteaglle said:
I wasn't referring to "battles" in the sense of an actual confrontation. I meant something more along the lines of breaking a habit. I've flown with pilots who have so many bad habits, I don't know where to start. I have to sit back, prioritize the biggest issues, then start working on those. Sometimes habits are hard to break, and there's only so many things you can keep reminding the student of throughout the flight.
desertdog71
Girthy Member
I have had my share of battles with me CFI. Of course if you are a mindless sheep it may be ok to go ahead and do everything you are told and question nothing. My CFI specifically tells me to do things to see if I will just do them or if I will evaluate it and make my own decision. Its called being a PIC.
deserteaglle
New Member
desertdog71 said:
That's a friggin' ridiculous thing to say. You've gone way overboard in the last couple of days man.
Go read a friggin' book. I'm not sayin' you don't have any idea what you're talking about, but what you're forgetting about in this instance is that if you call it anything besides "Departure" leg, YOU'RE WRONG!
You're not an autonamton for following the regs.
Now step off your high horse, and go sleep it off.
EatSleepFly
Well-Known Member
RESPECT MY AUTHORITAAYYYYY!
Sheesh... it's only Monday, this is going to be an interesting week with all you people who are PMS'ing. :whatever:
I know everything, you know nothing, and you will respect my authoritayyyy!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <SMACK!>
Sheesh... it's only Monday, this is going to be an interesting week with all you people who are PMS'ing. :whatever:
I know everything, you know nothing, and you will respect my authoritayyyy!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <SMACK!>
IFly85
Well-Known Member
Re: RESPECT MY AUTHORITAAYYYYY!
Very interesting indeed
EatSleepFly said:Sheesh... it's only Monday, this is going to be an interesting week with all you people who are PMS'ing. :whatever:
I know everything, you know nothing, and you will respect my authoritayyyy!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <SMACK!>
Very interesting indeed
deserteaglle
New Member
Male PMS is not a myth. lol.
Seriously though, I don't see how this can be an issue. Like I said in the other thread, it's not a huge deal, but it is incorrect.
It blows my mind that someone can throw facts back in your face and say, "I make my own decisions when I am in the plane, regardless of what is in black and white."
Seriously though, I don't see how this can be an issue. Like I said in the other thread, it's not a huge deal, but it is incorrect.
It blows my mind that someone can throw facts back in your face and say, "I make my own decisions when I am in the plane, regardless of what is in black and white."
EatSleepFly
Well-Known Member
Re: RESPECT MY AUTHORITAAYYYYY!
If you read enough of my posts, it's quite obvious that I don't know squat.
It was a joke, but apparently a bad one.IFly85 said:
If you read enough of my posts, it's quite obvious that I don't know squat.