Teaching Power on Stalls

[LV-ARG]

When I did my CFI I remember stalling the C172 power on would require right rudder and some left aileron input to keep its wings level as it approached the stalling condition. It was perfectly fine to mention that as long as you were coordinated (ball-wise) you could cross control (maybe this is awfully wrong in some overpowered ships but I really dont know). Power on turning stalls would be the same. Climbing to the left you would need right rudder but in order to maintain the assigned bank you would need ailerons.

Something completetly different is using a bunch of left rudder on a left turn, and using the ailerons not to go beyound your comfort "bank" attitude. Thats the real dangerous one.

AFH. 4-7

When the approach attitude and airpeed have stabilized, the airplane's nose should be smoothly raised to an attitude that will induce a stall. Directional control should be maintained with the rudder, the wings held level by use of ailerons [...]

 

[tgrayson]

AFH. 4-7

When the approach attitude and airpeed have stabilized, the airplane's nose should be smoothly raised to an attitude that will induce a stall. Directional control should be maintained with the rudder, the wings held level by use of ailerons [...]

Strictly speaking, that sentence only appears in the power off stall section, not the power on, so it doesn't pertain to this thread.

But let's contrast that advice with what Bill Kershner offers in "The Flight Instructor's Manual":

...you should give him straight stalls (power-on and power-off) to work on the idea of lateral and directional control in slightly more exaggerated pitch attitudes. He should be taught that coordinated use of aileron and rudder is the best method for maintaining lateral control. As will be covered in a later discuss of spins, cross-controlling at the stall break can result in lateral and directional control problems. Coordinated use of ailerons and rudder, especially after the stall recovery is initiated, is the most effective means of maintaining or regaining lateral control for later model airplanes. It's possible to raise a wing by pushing the opposite rudder for most airplanes, but for those with full tip tanks (inertia problems) and small rudders (low control effectiveness) such action is not effective.

As an overall practice it would better not to try to raise a wing (using ailerons and rudder) in any stall until the nose is lowered to the horizon or below in the recovery. While most airplanes will respond reasonably well to the lateral controls even in the stall, the main idea is to decrease the angle of attack; then the wings may be leveled. Don't let your students get into the habit of worrying about the wing attitude and neglecting the major requirement of relaxing back pressure to recover from the stall.

[…]
​

He goes on to explain the origin of the rudder for directional control thing:

Airplanes of earlier times lost control effectiveness in alphabetical order (A-E-R) as the stall was approached...Use of the aileron to raise a wing in the stall was generally counterproductive and the down aileron could drag that wing back and cause a spin in that direction.

Another problem was that a new private pilot, after going through numerous rudder exercise stalls and being very sharp at them, might 5 years later get into a stall condition at a low altitude. Did he remember to use rudder-only to keep the wing level? Probably not since he has been using aileron (and rudder) to raise a wing in the hundreds of hours of normal flight since his stall training (and very few private pilots go back for interim stall training.) The FAA requires, as part of the manufacturer's certification process, that the airplane be laterally controllable during the stall recovery (with certain limitations) with normal use of controls (FAR 23). It makes more sense this way since the pilot's reaction to a wing-drop in this regime would be to use normal control (opposite aileron and rudder) to raise the wing.​

 

[shdw]

Every airplane has its quirks at or around the stall. Have flown plenty that tended to drop a wing, while others were smoothly wings level unless provoked. I wouldn't really overthink it too much....if you are trying to maintain a coordinated stall, when the wing drops, just smoothly add a little rudder to level it back out. I would agree that the slip indicator can be inaccurate; best to use the seat of your pants and/or some sort of landmark/object in front of you for reference

:yeahthat:

I would add that, instead of the ball, visually equalizing your left wing to your right in relationship to the horizon will keep you coordinated as your angle your flight path towards vertical.


OP: In a stall and approaching a stall your sense can play a major roll in providing information. Apologies if this is a repeat as I only took a cursory look through this thread.

Sight: Provide coordination using the method mentioned above. Watch for change in heading and yaw by including the nose in your scan of each wingtip.

Tip: Cover the instruments, they really are useless in flying the airplane safely. With the exception of the airspeed indicator and stall warning devices, the instruments by enlarge provide information to fly more accurately, not more safely. Learning to stall without them is easier and keeping them visible can distract the new pilot into believing them a necessity to handle stalls. They aren't.

Sound: When all goes quite things will be more interesting. In power on situations this sense is masked, but still useful in rough recognition of slower flight.

Feel (Controls): I DO NOT JUST MEAN THE STICK YOU PLAY WITH IN YOUR HAND! The rudders give just as much information. Pay attention to how they react up to and through stalled flight and you'll immediately realize what I mean. From subtle shakes that tell experienced pilots a stall is imminent to the obvious spagetti feel just before stall. The controls tell us when it is time to prepare to and subsequently apply recovery action. You see it after you feel it.

Feel (Butt): Spending the majority of our time in land vehicles we are all very familiar with uncoordinated turns. Every turn in a car is uncoordinated unless on a banked roadway. That said, we are used to ignoring this feeling except when our friends take the turn so fast so as to glue us to the passengers window. In an airplane we can't ignore this feeling, even when it is so subtle that only the hairs on our butt cheeks slightly bend. This information is a direct link to our coordination and it is better than any instrument you have on that panel for this purpose.


Review the information our sense provide with your student before the stall lesson. My final tip: to stall an airplane the only set up needed is to begin pulling back on the controls (assuming you're not inverted). No procedures, no 14 item checklists, no stall set up guides, just pull back and start learning.

 

[beechpilot84]

Ignore the Ball,
Keep your heading with rudder use, (no left or right nose movement looking outside)
keep wings level with aileron.

+10 on that :yup:

It helps to have a few clouds up high. In the 172 I just have them keep their eyes outside, mostly through the side window and up front. Demonstrate how they need just enough right rudder that the nose does not yaw to the left. Make sure that if the plane starts to roll during the stall just to reduce back pressure and get out of it. A month ago I had a student start a spin with me. The plane started to roll at the moment of the stall and he corrected big time with the ailerons. Needless to say we flopped over very quickly.