Teaching power off 180's

rframe

rframe

pǝʇɹǝʌuı
How do you teach power off 180's?

I find I'm talking about energy management as it relates to airspeed and glide angle, and I think that's central to explaining "why" adjustments are made during the glide but it's somewhat abstract and doesn't provide a lot of concrete guidance on "how" to aim for and hit the target touchdown zone at the target airspeed consistently.
 
Here's how I do 'em:
1. Configure the airplane (gear) early and get the before landing items done well ahead of abeam the #s (or where ever the throttle is closed) - then the pilot can be much more focused outside references.
2. This will depend on the airplane... I deploy and trim with the first stage of flaps already in at the power off point
3. Initial speed some margin (10kts+) above normal approach speed; can be bled off in the turns

..and I then try to keep 1-3 as constant as possible. You're going for reduction in variables that will change the sight-picture here. This would include pattern alt and downwind spacing, obviously.

The tools available are then: timing of the turns, squaring of the base leg, more flaps, a slip, a turning slip, etc. I hesitate to add this (some may frown), but bringing the prop back temporarily can reduce descent rate quite a bit if you're looking low on energy.... again I hesitate on that a bit, but it works! That's quite a lot, really. Then the rest is just a matter of visualization, practice, and knowing the airplane, especially for predicting touchdown point (over the fence at xx speed = aim y distance ahead of the touchdown point). Wind is probably the biggest variable which will demand practice.
 
rframe said:
How do you teach power off 180's?

I find I'm talking about energy management as it relates to airspeed and glide angle, and I think that's central to explaining "why" adjustments are made during the glide but it's somewhat abstract and doesn't provide a lot of concrete guidance on "how" to aim for and hit the target touchdown zone at the target airspeed consistently.
Click to expand...

Practice! It is just like any other landing, you just don't have the option of adding power.

Minimizing configuration changes makes it easier, I wouldn't do them full flap. No flaps or one notch is easiest, control the sink rate with a slip all the way to the aiming point (100-200' short of touchdown point). That's about it.

I do them the way I would land a glider - trim appropriate (best glide + 10 or so), and don't change it.

I have seen some CFIs reach extend downwind to give more time to set up on final. I don't like this, prefer turning straight for the numbers immediately.

If you are doing it for real, going off the end at 10kts is always better than being a 1/4 mile short...
 
Just like others have said, configure gear early so the landing can be focused on next then as you go down use the flaps if you start getting long. Are you doing this in your aircraft or 56B?
 
.
Cessnaflyer said:
Just like others have said, configure gear early so the landing can be focused on next then as you go down use the flaps if you start getting long. Are you doing this in your aircraft or 56B?
Click to expand...

I'm using 56B for my ride. I'm usually pretty solid with 180's in my airplane. I tend to be a little high in 56B, I think it's a mental hang up I've got from almost coming up short on my Commercial ride, so now I'm subconciously keeping it too tight and end up trying to dump energy too late in the game. Did some 180's up at DEW in 56B last week and they were dead on, then did a spiral to land on my last flight and was way high and so that's got my nerves up again... just need to chill and look for the right picture I guess.

I know for a fact that I'm teaching 180's on my check ride so I'm hoping to come up with a better way to explain what I'm looking at/for on base to final. I'm finding it harder to articulate than I think it should be.

I'm going to go grab it tonight after work and work on a few over at Felts and hopefully build my confidence back up and maybe think of a better way to describe what I'm looking at while making the judgement and adjustments.
 
Cool, are you going to be with Rickey?

I know he really likes the explanations of maneuvers to be pretty close to what they are in the book. It is just like a normal landing when you come on to final. The best way is to start high because potential energy is all you have to turn into forward motion. Use your aiming point and be just a little high through the whole maneuver until you get to the end and you can dump flaps and slow it up.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
Practice! It is just like any other landing, you just don't have the option of adding power.

Minimizing configuration changes makes it easier, I wouldn't do them full flap. No flaps or one notch is easiest, control the sink rate with a slip all the way to the aiming point (100-200' short of touchdown point). That's about it.

I do them the way I would land a glider - trim appropriate (best glide + 10 or so), and don't change it.

I have seen some CFIs reach extend downwind to give more time to set up on final. I don't like this, prefer turning straight for the numbers immediately.

If you are doing it for real, going off the end at 10kts is always better than being a 1/4 mile short...
Click to expand...

Specially if you're flying an Arrow you'll have to turn to the numbers immediately if you want to make the runway:aghast:...............
 
jafra98 said:
Specially if you're flying an Arrow you'll have to turn to the numbers immediately if you want to make the runway:aghast:...............
Click to expand...
This! Arrows do not glide well, especially with gear down. Cessnas float practically forever.
 
Why in the world does everyone put the gear down right away? Its a tool, use it to improve your accuracy. In a real emergency, are you going to put gear down as step number one?
 
Fly_Unity said:
Why in the world does everyone put the gear down right away? Its a tool, use it to improve your accuracy. In a real emergency, are you going to put gear down as step number one?
Click to expand...
Everybody does it that way. I did it that way right up until my CFI checkride, when the examiner threw me a curve: " I've got your throttle, but I want you to wait until you have the runway made before you drop the landing gear" I waited until I was on base, about to turn final to drop the gear. I was WAY high and said so. "Fix it" was all the examiner said. I did a full deflection slip, but we were clearly not going to land on the 1000' markers, and I said so. "Just don't run off the end of the runway" the Examiner said.

Well, I didn't run off the end of the runway.
 
I think I'd rather teach students to put the gear down on downwind and fly the airplane as configured. Having or not having gear might make the difference to stretch a glide but should not make any difference starting from a suitable altitude with a field already made, at that point it's all about energy management. I'd be far more concerned about teaching my students to readily ignore that gear warning horn repeatedly only a few hundred feet off the ground, which is far more likely to lead to an accident than them coming up short. Just my inexperienced opinion.

I hit the front 1/3 of the captains bars every time tonight but didn't come up with any better way to describe it rather than, turn base, monitor your descent angle, watching for relative movements of your target in the window, turn base early if you feel low and short on energy, wait a bit if you feel things look right... flaps to make big changes in descent rate, slips to make small changes and bleed off airspeed energy... dont think I can describe it any simpler than that?
 
There is no reason you shouldn't be able to make the field at pattern altitude with the gear down from any point.

Real life and checkride are different things. But every DPE I know expects gear down before cutting the power.

And no kidding about Cessna's floating - my first 172 landing in 6+ months was with a JC'er over the weekend. I am used to sinking like a rock, they don't do that so much.
 
Power off 180 is my favorite thing to practice for the heck of it. No flap if you're in a 172 and it makes it a little more enjoyable
 
drunkenbeagle said:
And no kidding about Cessna's floating - my first 172 landing in 6+ months was with a JC'er over the weekend. I am used to sinking like a rock, they don't do that so much.
Click to expand...

that's when you retract the flaps in the flare, while shock cooling the engine and running over-square. ;)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top