Teaching landings

[gotWXdagain]

Again, in my experience this is not the case. I teach it this way because the student has a sight picture that's familiar to him/her, and overtime they will learn to grease their landings as they continue to hold back pressure. You said to bring the nose above the horizon. Why would you have the student loose sight of the runway at any point during the landing? On taxi, my sight picture is very nose-down, not nose up, both in the tomahawk and 172. I did not agree with this technique at first. When my boss told me about it, I thought it was the worst idea in the world and would result in very flat landings, just like you stated. However, this method has worked great and it is amazing how students quickly learn to flare.

BTW I was not "talking down" to you but if you took it that way so be it.

You can do whatever you feel works out for you, but three feet above the runway the student should have enough SA/Peripheral to know that they are above the runway. Also, in your original-not edited after I quoted you- post, I don't know how saying "think before you speak" isn't talking down on someone.

 

[aobt14]

Also, in your original-not edited after I quoted you- post, I don't know how saying "think before you speak" isn't talking down on someone.

That's a really good way to break a skyhawk.

And this is not talking down to someone? To say my method of teaching something is "a great way to break a skyhawk" is rather insulting. If I was putting my students or myself in danger, I would gladly accept the criticism and would do my best to change it. Even if this was the case, I was astounded by your peremptory remark rather than simply describing a more positive alternative. Again, I deleted that part of the post because it was unnecessary. No hard feelings on my end

 

[JordanD]

One thing I did learn with some students is don't talk too much. After I felt like I beat a dead horse with talking them through the pattern and landing, I just shut up and let them make a few mistakes and figure it out.

Yeah, I'm having a hard time finding a balance between talking too much and learning what to let slide before saying something. Especially if they're forgetting checks or putting flaps in. Obviously if they're getting slow I let out a simple "watch your airspeed" though. Anything to stop them from killing me.

Then when I vow not to say anything, I get "should I put the flaps in now?" Oh well.

 

[grkero]

Then when I vow not to say anything, I get "should I put the flaps in now?" Oh well.

I just ask, "What do you think?"

When I am confident they know what to do but may forget a few things, I tell the student "ok, fly this pattern like I am not here. I won't let you do anything unsafe, but you do what you think is right." Then I usually wait till we're off the runway to review the pattern and talk about their strong points/weak points.

 

[rframe]

Yeah, I'm having a hard time finding a balance between talking too much and learning what to let slide before saying something.

Dont be afraid to fly the airplane once in a while, let the student see what is supposed to be happening. One mistake I've made with instructing is trying to talk the student through everything before they've observed and really understand the end goal. It's easy to assume the student knows what you mean when you say things but sometimes they either have no clue what you't talking about, or even worse they think you mean something different.
With landings, be sure to demonstrate the different types of landings before getting the student to do them. Even after they've been practicing them for a while, every once in a while go back and demonstrate again... there's a whole different type of learning that's very helpful when they sit back and watch someone else (particularly if they are observing someone doing it "right"), as the pressure to fly the airplane isn't there and they can really observe and dissect and understand what's happening in a way that's not always possible while they are controlling the airplane because their brain is so locked up in sensory overload and memory recall items, it's hard for them to observer and think...it's great review and reflection for them.

 

[JordanD]

Dont be afraid to fly the airplane once in a while, let the student see what is supposed to be happening. One mistake I've made with instructing is trying to talk the student through everything before they've observed and really understand the end goal. It's easy to assume the student knows what you mean when you say things but sometimes they either have no clue what you't talking about, or even worse they think you mean something different.
With landings, be sure to demonstrate the different types of landings before getting the student to do them. Even after they've been practicing them for a while, every once in a while go back and demonstrate again... there's a whole different type of learning that's very helpful when they sit back and watch someone else (particularly if they are observing someone doing it "right"), as the pressure to fly the airplane isn't there and they can really observe and dissect and understand what's happening in a way that's not always possible while they are controlling the airplane because their brain is so locked up in sensory overload and memory recall items, it's hard for them to observer and think...it's great review and reflection for them.

Definitely, it's easy to forget one of the steps in teaching a skill is demonstration.

I just ask, "What do you think?"

When I am confident they know what to do but may forget a few things, I tell the student "ok, fly this pattern like I am not here. I won't let you do anything unsafe, but you do what you think is right." Then I usually wait till we're off the runway to review the pattern and talk about their strong points/weak points.

Yeah I do something kind of similar most of the time, when they ask I just shrug and go "I dunno". Usually they figure it out, sometimes they just go blank and I still have to tell them. I kinda worry if I come across as a smartass when I do that haha

 

[grkero]

Yeah I do something kind of similar most of the time, when they ask I just shrug and go "I dunno". Usually they figure it out, sometimes they just go blank and I still have to tell them. I kinda worry if I come across as a smartass when I do that haha

Lol they will thank you one day. At least I hope my students will.

 

[JustinS]

Yeah I do something kind of similar most of the time, when they ask I just shrug and go "I dunno". Usually they figure it out, sometimes they just go blank and I still have to tell them. I kinda worry if I come across as a smartass when I do that haha

It depends on my student and how far into their training they are. I will range anywhere from not saying a word and just looking at them like they're speaking a foreign language to "Yes good thinking," or "no net yet." In the first stages though sometimes students just don't know and it's great to give pointers on making the decision of when to add flaps etc. Students learn from their mistakes, and if they have watched you demonstrate things several times, they already have an idea of what it's suppose to look like. When they don't do it quite the way you demonstrated, it's good in the debrief to identify the differences and how to correct.

When it comes to any confusion where my student thinks I'm being a tool, I communicate with them in the briefing or in the debrief that when I shrug or don't respond to their question, that I'm not doing it to be a jerk. Instead, I am doing it to empower them with the decision because I think they're ready to handle the responsibility and they're able to practice what they have been learning. Usually when they understand that, it prevents tension in the cockpit, and more learning gets accomplished.

 

[shdw]

Dont be afraid to fly the airplane once in a while, let the student see what is supposed to be happening. One mistake I've made with instructing is trying to talk the student through everything before they've observed and really understand the end goal. It's easy to assume the student knows what you mean when you say things but sometimes they either have no clue what you't talking about, or even worse they think you mean something different.

This. Personally I like to introduce the maneuver they will do next lesson at the end of each lesson. Then when they come back for the next lesson, having seen it once and now done some reading on the procedure I want them to use, I go through it again using the good old FAA telling and doing method:

• Instructor tells instructor does
• Student tells instructor does
• Student tells student does
• Student does instructor evaluates

From what I see, if they can tell me what to do clearly without taking long pauses to remember what is next then chances are good they will do the maneuver pretty good even the first time. Nine times out of ten if they maneuver is bad there is a lack of understanding of the steps involved to execute the maneuver, this method is great for shedding light the areas where the understanding is lacking.

Remember, you cannot apply till you understand. You can't understand till you memorize.

 

[word302]

I still emphasize that unless your student is a rock-star, 9 hours is way too early to be on your 3rd pattern lesson. Are they nailing slow flight and stall procedures with no input from you? Landing will come pretty naturally if you wait until they're ready to teach it. Don't force it. Have them fly the approach, level-off, and fly over the runway at 3 to 5 feet at approach speed. When they nail this, have them move from one side of the runway to the other, then back to the centerline. All while keeping the fuselage aligned with the runway (good prep for crosswinds). Always complete these low approaches with a go-around. If they are having difficulty, you control the throttle. When they have these nailed, just slowly reduce the power and they will perform a beautiful touchdown. Let them take the power and your work is done.

 

[Websterpilot]

I completely agree with this statement. If the student can't fly the airplane up at altitude they won't be able to do it in the pattern. As mentioned, I see the most improvement when conducting low approaches while I manipulate the throttle to keep the plane flying. It gives the student the required time during the round-out to use both aileron and rudder keeping the plane over the center line and straight down the runway.

I've basically figured out that you can either spend an average 10 hours in the air and 5 hours doing landings, or you can spend 5 hours in the air and do 10 hours of landings (figuratively speaking of course.) From my experience the student will eventually learn how to land, however the difference your going to see is a solid foundation of airmanship skills that will help the student succeed much faster through the rest of the program. Forcing the landings before the student is ready will just set you and your student up for a long road ahead.

 

[JordanD]

Just an update. Got my student up and did all the maneuevers, they were well to PTS standards, so we kept up with the landings. Really got on him for airspeed control and had HIM taxi with the nose up. Did a couple other things, and now he's finally getting it, he actually greased one a couple days ago. But then of course on the last landing back home he pretty much released all the back pressure in the flare and let the nose flop onto the runway. 2 steps forward, one step back. Oh well, progress.

 

[Websterpilot]

Hey progress is progress!! Way to go!