Teaching landings

[rframe]

I actually think adding soft field earlier helps with people who flop landings because they have to maintain positive control throughout the takeoff and landing rolls. I generally wait on short field because we're closer to the edge of the envelope and I need a greater level of trust in the students abilities and reactions.

 

[word302]

For sure. It took me forever to learn how to land, and naturally I still screw them up from time to time, especially when I'm trying to give them an example.

I'm in the same boat, I don't teach them landings until they get all the maneuvers down. No point learning to land if they can't do basic aircraft control. Same with short field soft field takeoffs, never until they get really good at normal takeoffs.

I'm just wondering if your students really have all the maneuvers down. In your first post, you mention your students are all less than 10 hours. I rarely even talk to students about the pattern that early. I also don't necessarily agree with the poster that said it takes over 100 landings to get it right. If you really use the building blocks method and your students are ready for pattern work, I think you will find that your time spent there will be cut dramatically. My students that fly at least a couple times a week will usually take no more than 4 or 5 lessons in the pattern before they're really landing well. This includes the first 2 days of really only working on low approaches and go arounds.

Also remember that the airplane is a terrible classroom. Make sure you have done sufficient ground training so the student really understands the dynamics of the traffic pattern and where they should be focusing their attention during all aspects of the approach. Trying to explain things in the airplane is like talking to a chair. Your students will absorb very little of what you say while they are flying the airplane, especially trying to perform a procedure that is new.

 

[shdw]

If you really use the building blocks method and your students are ready for pattern work, I think you will find that your time spent there will be cut dramatically. My students that fly at least a couple times a week will usually take no more than 4 or 5 lessons in the pattern before they're really landing well. This includes the first 2 days of really only working on low approaches and go arounds.

Exactly, starting with 16 on flare, stage check to review pts maneuvers with some more flare work/go arounds, and then 4 lessons of actual landings before they solo. The last half dozen students I solo'ed I don't think a single one had over 50 landings. I solo'd one guy with just over 20.

I once had a high time instructor tell me he could see everything he needed to know about a pilot in one lap around the pattern. I've heard this many times since. Flipping that around, if you build up the necessary piloting skills to fly the airplane before pushing the landing phase, the landing phase will be easy.

 

[sounddoc]

Before a student can land, they need to be able to handle MCA properly. Concepts such as control effectiveness vs. velocity. As for flaring, watch their eyes when they're landing - where are they looking? Have you done low approaches with them (i.e. fly the runway in ground effect as suggested earlier)? Do an adverse yaw demonstration with them during MCA, so they learn proper crosswind technique - true that bank controls drift and yaw lines you up, but a change in one effects they other, so proper coordination will lead to pretty crosswind landings. Just because your flaring in a crosswind, doesn't mean that adverse yaw ceases to exist. Likewise, an increase in rudder pressure, will increase the velocity of one wing. Crosswinds aside, this might help the zig-zagging as well.

And fwiw, you're not experiencing anything I (and most likely other CFIs) haven't experienced. the first 100 hours are learning to fly all over again!

 

[Websterpilot]

+1 for the low approaches and wheelies down the runway. You may also want to force them to fly with only 3 fingers. They will hate it at first, but it reduces the death grip and helps big time on over controlling because it makes it difficult to put enough pressure on the yoke to over control. Some students tend to twist the yoke when they change pitch during a death grip. When they drive to/from the airport have them grip the steering wheel hard and then push and pull on it. They will see how how the steering wheel is turning and stop doing it in the airplane.

As far as judging flair height. I have no idea why this tends to work, but when I run out of ways to teach when it is appropriate to flare, I resort to having the student tell me when they think they are 2 seconds away from smacking into the runway. At that point I have them add back pressure and flare. Seems to work 80% of the time. Gives them something to hold onto until judging vertical distance makes sense.

 

[Websterpilot]

Also, I've found students tend to mess up round out and flare more when they aren't on a stabilized approach, which is often due to the altitude being screwed up. Obstacles aside, once they are abeam the touchdown point and reduce power, have them glance at the VSI every now and then and maintain 300-400 fpm all the way through until final. Yes they should be able to do everything by looking out of the window, but I've found it helps guard against pulling the nose up through base and final turns and also when they deploy flaps. Once you get the stabilized approach down, the flare seems to come naturally due to the student concentrating on precise control inputs the entire time.

 

[Inverted25]

Maybe mentioned already but make sure students are trimming the airplane properly as well. I have seen overcontrolling caused by full nose down trim during the approach.

 

[A150K]

Teaching landings? Don't take off!

Before taxiing onto the runway, in a tricycle gear airplane set the flaps to match the downward aileron deflection (usually what ever the short field setting if flaps are recommended) Next, set the elevator trim to where it would normally be for landing. Taxi onto the runway with full aft elevator (like a soft-field take off) Line up on the center line then apply just enough power to get the nose wheel off the ground. During the high speed taxi, maintain centerline using the rudder and maintain the attitude with elevator and power adjustments. Keep the main's on and just wheelie down the runway.

This exercise accomplishes many things at once. 1)Direction control with the rudder 2)How to maintain a landing attitude as airspeed diminishes 3)Sight picture of the landing attitude 4)Using peripheral vision to maintain centerline 5)Hand-Foot-Eye coordination 6)More smooth and precise elevator & power inputs. Finally, it teaches and eventually eliminates the tendency to land flat and porpoise by emphasizing positive elevator control from touchdown to roll out.

This exercise should be briefed and demonstrated before expecting the student to do it on their own.

I gotta try this...

 

[JordanD]

Still finding myself grabbing the yoke and pulling to avoid nose wheel plants... And if they're about to plant the nose gear they usually balloon and pancake in from 40 feet... I'm telling them power to idle when the runway is made... Pitch for Vref until about 10-20 ft, watch the far end of the runway, and act like you're trying to hold it at 10 ft. I even did a fast taxi down the runway to show them the touchdown attitude. No dice yet so it's a little confidence shattering but hopefully it'll come together. This particular student has about 9 hours, so I guess it's not too bad.

 

[gotWXdagain]

Still finding myself grabbing the yoke and pulling to avoid nose wheel plants... And if they're about to plant the nose gear they usually balloon and pancake in from 40 feet... I'm telling them power to idle when the runway is made... Pitch for Vref until about 10-20 ft, watch the far end of the runway, and act like you're trying to hold it at 10 ft. I even did a fast taxi down the runway to show them the touchdown attitude. No dice yet so it's a little confidence shattering but hopefully it'll come together. This particular student has about 9 hours, so I guess it's not too bad.

Have them do the fast taxi?

 

[JordanD]

Have them do the fast taxi?

Next time I might. It was mainly to get a prolonged "this is what it should look like" while they're just watching and not preoccupied with anything else. This particular student says he gets the principles, but putting them into practice is a little problematic. Oh well.. Practice. This is the second or third lesson dedicated to landings.

 

[grkero]

9 hrs? I wouldn't sweat it man my first solo was a process but was about 15 hrs. Nothing seemed like it was going right and then it just clicked eventually.

One thing I did learn with some students is don't talk too much. After I felt like I beat a dead horse with talking them through the pattern and landing, I just shut up and let them make a few mistakes and figure it out.

And as always... I seem to find the biggest problem with people is where their eyes are at in the flare. I say it everytime in the flare... Eyes down at the end of the runway.

 

[gotWXdagain]

Next time I might. It was mainly to get a prolonged "this is what it should look like" while they're just watching and not preoccupied with anything else. This particular student says he gets the principles, but putting them into practice is a little problematic. Oh well.. Practice. This is the second or third lesson dedicated to landings.

Now that you have "this is what it should look like," If the student has that down, you need to transition to "this is how it should feel."

 

[aobt14]

Here's what I tell them and it seems to work:

Remember the pitch attitude from straight-and-level flight? At 10 feet (or whatever half-the wingspan is) pitch the airplane for straight-and-level. Hold this pitch attitude until the wheels touch. Just like power-off stalls, we will need to apply more back pressure to hold that sight picture as we slow down until the wheels touch.

 

[gotWXdagain]

Here's what I tell them and it seems to work:

Remember the pitch attitude from straight-and-level flight? At 10 feet (or whatever half-the wingspan is) pitch the airplane for straight-and-level. Hold this pitch attitude until the wheels touch. Just like power-off stalls, we will need to apply more back pressure to hold that sight picture as we slow down until the wheels touch.

That's a really good way to break a skyhawk.

 

[aobt14]

That's a really good way to break a skyhawk.

I disagree with that statement. The next time your in a 172, look at your sight picture for straight and level and look at your sight picture in the flare. Keep in mind I said pitch for straight-and-level flight attitude, not fly straight-and-level.

 

[gotWXdagain]

Think before you speak. The next time your in a 172, look at your sight picture for straight and level and look at your sight picture in the flare. They are nearly identical. Keep in mind I said pitch for straight-and-level flight attitude, not fly straight-and-level.

I can say from experience that if you are landing it with a cruise sight picture, you are landing it FLAT. Actually, the nose is contacting first because the nose gear extends longer than the mains. Sooner or later, you will have a student come in with a combination of too steep and too fast and you'll be out the cost of a decently-outfitted used Skyhawk or a much higher insurance premium, or both.

Ever notice how a taxi sight picture is slightly nose-up compared to a cruise sight picture? Next time you're out practicing landings, when you're about three to five feet off the runway, bring the nose up until the cowling is just slightly above the horizon (about 10 degrees nose-up, tail strike is around 12.5 so don't do it too aggressively) and hold it there. Softest landing you will ever feel once you get the feel for the transition. As you grease it on, continue to work in the backpressure until the nose starts to come down on its own, and as it starts to come down, slowly start to work in brake pressure, keeping full backpressure. When the nosewheel touches you should be at maximum effective braking, and will likely stop the airplane in around 100' less than POH figures, if you have good tires and brakes.

Finally, talking down to someone online is bad ADM.

 

[TwoTwoLeft]

I can say from experience that if you are landing it with a cruise sight picture, you are landing it FLAT.

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[pwttogfk]

Two things: First, make sure to spend some time with your student setting their seat position. This way both of you have the same sight picture. Second, the trick I've found that works perfectly once you have a good sight picture is to pitch up until the top of the instrument panel barely covers the end of the runway. Of course, this assumes you have a level runway That works for me in every single engine Cessna high wing

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[aobt14]

I can say from experience that if you are landing it with a cruise sight picture, you are landing it FLAT. Actually, the nose is contacting first because the nose gear extends longer than the mains. .

Ever notice how a taxi sight picture is slightly nose-up compared to a cruise sight picture? bring the nose up until the cowling is just slightly above the horizon

Finally, talking down to someone online is bad ADM.

Again, in my experience this is not the case. I teach it this way because the student has a sight picture that's familiar to him/her, and overtime they will learn to grease their landings as they continue to hold back pressure. You said to bring the nose above the horizon. Why would you have the student loose sight of the runway at any point during the landing? On taxi, my sight picture is very nose-down, not nose up, both in the tomahawk and 172. I did not agree with this technique at first. When my boss told me about it, I thought it was the worst idea in the world and would result in very flat landings, just like you stated. However, this method has worked great and it is amazing how students quickly learn to flare.

BTW I was not "talking down" to you but if you took it that way so be it.