Take off Mins

pilotlight

Well-Known Member
Ok could you say who is right, we got in a little discussion today about takeoff mins.
Weather at the airport is 1000 rvr 100 ovc.
Particular airport takeoff mins for the specific rnwy are 1600 rvr or 1/4 and they are listed that way on the chart.
Pilot A says well we have the hirl, CL, and rclm and two operative RVR's so we can go below the 1600 to 1000 rvr and take off.
Pilot B says no, we can't go below the minimums on the chart for that specific runway. If the runway did not have mins published, then you could use those formulas to dirive how low you can go but in this situation we can't take off unless RVR is at or above 1600
 

Alchemy

Well-Known Member
Ok could you say who is right, we got in a little discussion today about takeoff mins.
Weather at the airport is 1000 rvr 100 ovc.
Particular airport takeoff mins for the specific rnwy are 1600 rvr or 1/4 and they are listed that way on the chart.
Pilot A says well we have the hirl, CL, and rclm and two operative RVR's so we can go below the 1600 to 1000 rvr and take off.
Pilot B says no, we can't go below the minimums on the chart for that specific runway. If the runway did not have mins published, then you could use those formulas to dirive how low you can go but in this situation we can't take off unless RVR is at or above 1600
I guess it would depend on the operator, so i can only speak for my airline, but in this case pilot A would be correct. 1 SM/5000 RVR is the standard takeoff minimum for a two engined aircraft. The published minimums are even lower than that, so there is no problem further reducing to 1000 RVR or lower if your opspecs permit and the necessary markings/equipment are operational. If the published miniums were higher than 1 SM/5000 RVR, or had a ceiling listed, then pilot B would've been correct.
 

BobDDuck

Island Bus Driver
My understanding is the mins on the plate are controlling. However, you may not be able to go all the way down to the mins on the plate depending on your opspecs. For example, our opspecs say we can go all the way down to 500,500,500 but many plates have mins much higher than that so we have to abide by those published minimums.
 

SpiraMirabilis

Possible Subversive
Our opsecs say we can do reduced minimum takeoffs to 6-6-6 rvr , but we've recently we've received authorization to go to 5-5-5 once every pilot has been trained for reduced mins takeoffs, previously only captains were trained.

However, I also agree that the plates are the limiting factor here
 

Alchemy

Well-Known Member
Our opsecs say we can do reduced minimum takeoffs to 6-6-6 rvr , but we've recently we've received authorization to go to 5-5-5 once every pilot has been trained for reduced mins takeoffs, previously only captains were trained.

However, I also agree that the plates are the limiting factor here
I'm pretty sure the plate should only be the limiting factor if it depicts minimums higher than the standard 1 SM/5000 RVR and 000 ceiling, at least at my company. I look at places like corpus christi tx, or grand rapids michigan where the lowest takeoff mins depicted are 1600 or 1/4 and I'm fairly certain that it's acceptable to apply your reductions at places like that.
 

casey

Well-Known Member
the opspec that allows reducing takeoff mins lets you reduce if the published takeoff mins are standard or lower *and* there is no ceiling requirement.
 

Rocketman99

Frozen Guppy Manipulator
Pilot B is correct. The plates say the min required is 1600RVR so 1000RVR isn't gonna cut it. Takeoff is verboten!
 

EDUC8-or

Well-Known Member
I'll just reiterate what's already been said, you can't take off. I'll give you an example, at my company we train to do 500 RVR takeoffs, so if the back of the airport diagram says 500 RVR we're legal to depart that particular runway if all of the listed requirements are met.

HOWEVER if the back of the plate says 1600 RVR we can't depart if any of the transmissometers are reporting below 1600 RVR. (i.e. Touchdown - 1900 RVR, Midpoint - 2000 RVR, Rollout - 1500 RVR.) Your example of 1000 RVR would not be legal because it's less than what's required at that particular airport to legally depart.

Your example of 100' ceilings is not a factor in determining if you're legal to depart, it is all based on RVR or visibility.
 

subpilot

Squawking 7600
I second EDUC8-or's statement. You can not go lower than either your company limit or the runway limit. In other words, you need both the runway rvr and your company rvr requirements met in order to take off.
 

pilotlight

Well-Known Member
I'll just reiterate what's already been said, you can't take off. I'll give you an example, at my company we train to do 500 RVR takeoffs, so if the back of the airport diagram says 500 RVR we're legal to depart that particular runway if all of the listed requirements are met.

HOWEVER if the back of the plate says 1600 RVR we can't depart if any of the transmissometers are reporting below 1600 RVR. (i.e. Touchdown - 1900 RVR, Midpoint - 2000 RVR, Rollout - 1500 RVR.) Your example of 1000 RVR would not be legal because it's less than what's required at that particular airport to legally depart.

Your example of 100' ceilings is not a factor in determining if you're legal to depart, it is all based on RVR or visibility.

I will admit I was pilot B and I sat there until the rvr went up to 1600.
 

TUCKnTRUCK

That guy
Short of posting on here for a pat on the back... Your FOPPM lays it out in black and white.

You should judge wether you made the right or wrong call by that... not what other pilots would have done.

*Edit*
Sorry, i seem a bit cranky today. As a captain, you should know this from your foppm, if you don't or are unsure of the correct answer, then look it up, don't ask another guy across the terminal who may not even work at the same airline. I see way to many post that are simply one pilot second guessing another pilot. Like an FO second guessing a CA, when the FO may not have "all" the information relevant at the time.

Here is one to discuss then. You are on the ground in Snow Pellets. They are not adhering to the A/C... do you de-ice? and risk having them start to adhere in the type IV?
 

EDUC8-or

Well-Known Member
Here is one to discuss then. You are on the ground in Snow Pellets. They are not adhering to the A/C... do you de-ice? and risk having them start to adhere in the type IV?
I would read the de/anti-ice bulletin, if it says you must deice you need to spray down. Without looking at our company bulletin I'm about 99.9% positive you would have to deice.

As far as Type IV is concerned, it is applied cold and designed to slide off as you accelerate for takeoff, so snow pellets adhering to the fluid shouldn't be an issue. If you deice with Type I and then anti-ice with Type IV you should not have an issue.
 

Alchemy

Well-Known Member
This is really interesting, because as casey stated our FOM allows us to apply our reductions as long as the depicted minimums for the runway are lower than 1 SM/5000 RVR and have no ceiling requirement. Our FOM clearly spells this out. I guess it's just a difference in our opspecs.

Standard takeoff minimus are 1 SM (5000 RVR)
Mins may be reduced only when standard (or lower mins are depicted on Jepp airport plate). Anytime takeoff minimum reductions are applied a takeoff alternate will be necessary.
 

casey

Well-Known Member
This is really interesting, because as casey stated our FOM allows us to apply our reductions as long as the depicted minimums for the runway are lower than 1 SM/5000 RVR and have no ceiling requirement. Our FOM clearly spells this out. I guess it's just a difference in our opspecs.
and its not just our FOM, its in the opspec. for you guys that dont think you can take off, which opspec do you guys use for reducing takeoff mins? if its C056, then you guys need to re-read your opspecs and FOM (or get it corrected).

You guys are getting hung up over what is printed on the charts, the only thing that matters is the published value, and whether or not it is equal to standard (5000 / 1sm), lower than standard, more than standard or has ceiling requirement.

Per the OP SPEC, if the value is not published, pubished and equal to standard or published and lower than standard, then you may reduce takeoff minimums. Now you are saying the published mins are 1600rvr, so what. The OP SPEC authorizes me to reduce takeoff minimums per our op specs, not what is printed on the chart. SO, if the the takeoff mins are published 5000rvr or lower, then i may apply the OP SPECs to reduce takeoff visibility to either 600 rvr, 1000 rvr or 1600 rvr, the process and requirements of which are defined by our OP SPECs and laid out in our FOM.

In short, your op specs override the chart. If this is difficult to understand just take a look at derived alternate minimums. The regs lay out a very easy and concrete method to determine alternate mins. Why can you depart with an alternate calling 400-1? that is against the regs. the answer is that the op specs that allow derived alternate minimums have precedence over the regs. Same thing with reduced visibility takeoffs, the op spec has priority over any reduced value printed on the charts by jeppesen.

I dont care what the chart says, if it says 1600 rvr required, 2000 rvr required, 5000 rvr, 1/4 sm, 1/2sm or 1sm, any of those, if i have the necessary equipment i can takeoff at 600 rvr. if i dont have enough for that, perhaps i can do 1000 rvr, and if not enough fo that then 1600 rvr. I can do this because i am authorized by my FOM which outlines the procedure authorized by OP SPEC C056.

If however, the published takeoff mins are 5001 rvr, 1 1/4 sm, 2 sm, 1600rvr - 2000ft ceiling, etc, then i have to use what is published and i may not reduce it.

In short, if your company has C056 the pilot A is right, if it does not then pilot B may be right.
 

EDUC8-or

Well-Known Member
We use C056 and at our company we're authorized to do 500 RVR takeoffs. Different companies use different procedures, but we are not authorized to use lower than standard takeoffs unless A) You have met all of the requirements on the back of the Airport Diagram or B) There are no takeoff minimums published.

Basically the only time they could be reduced is when there isn't anything published. I'm sure you could find a very rare exception to the rule, but when the minimums are published it's because the airport isn't equipped for lower viz takeoffs.
 

casey

Well-Known Member
We use C056 and at our company we're authorized to do 500 RVR takeoffs. Different companies use different procedures, but we are not authorized to use lower than standard takeoffs unless A) You have met all of the requirements on the back of the Airport Diagram or B) There are no takeoff minimums published.
are you sure the requirements you need to meet are not the obstacle/climb gradients? Those takeoff minimums "published" on jepp charts that are standard or lower, especially the ones of "1600RVR 1/4SM" or anything lower than that are usually just helper values from jeppesen to lead you down the path of reducing minimums. If you want, go look at an airport with 1600rvr on your jepp and then go look in a naco book and you probably wont see any values published. would you reduce the takeoff at this airport? i would.
 

EDUC8-or

Well-Known Member
are you sure the requirements you need to meet are not the obstacle/climb gradients? Those takeoff minimums "published" on jepp charts that are standard or lower, especially the ones of "1600RVR 1/4SM" or anything lower than that are usually just helper values from jeppesen to lead you down the path of reducing minimums. If you want, go look at an airport with 1600rvr on your jepp and then go look in a naco book and you probably wont see any values published. would you reduce the takeoff at this airport? i would.
I would only reduce the takeoff mins if they have centerline lights or a combination of centerline lights and runway centerline markings, that's what is required per our ops specs. I looked through my A-O in my Jepps and found Daytona Beach to be the only airport where we could reduce the mins below 1600 because they have centerline lights.
 

Polar742

All the responsibility none of the authority
What'll really blow your mind is when there is an epiphany that an airport that has reducable mins per the 10-9 (and the 10-9 equipment listing for reducing your T/O mins will have notes that match the opspec to the letter) will have all the equipment required by the op specs to reduce your T/O value to the published mins.

It's almost like it was planned out.

Even crazier, is that a 5/5/5 runway usually has a CAT III approach to it.

Nutty....;)
 

B767Driver

New Member
You are not permitted to apply the ops specs mins without charted mins. The mins must be on the chart for you to operationally apply them.

If you are approved for a 500 RVR takeoff...and charted min is 600 RVR...you are only good for 600.
 
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