Tailwheel flying

[ctab5060X]

Good god man! This should never be a recommendation in any tailwheel plane! If you bounce, you have two options: Transition to a 3-point and let the airplane settle, or go around. It was burned into my head not to try and push the mains back onto the ground after a bounce because of pilot-induced oscillation, and I've still made the mistake (recently!). Speaking of groundloops (and prop strikes), that's a great way to initiate them.

I wouldn't say any tailwheel airplane. It is a great recommendation for ones with spring steel landing gear, but if you are lucky enough to have a set of fat oleo struts, you can plant with forward pressure. The Twin Beech responed very well to forward yoke and planting the mains if you managed to skip or bounce (you don't bounce that high). Transitioning to a three point attitude in that airplane in that situation would get you in more trouble than planting it.

Even if you do bounce one with spring steel, it comes down to situational awareness at times. How hard was the bounce? How much runway is still available? Winds? If it is a slight bounce (foot or so back in the air), I'll give it some forward stick and settle back on the mains. If it is a bigger bounce and I have plenty of runway left, I will give it some power and stabilze the bounce and put the airplane back down. FYI, this is generally in my 7ECA, but it has also served me well in other spring steel gears as well. Then again... I learned to fly in and out of a lot of one way in strips where go arounds for balked landings weren't the best choice. It also can vary with the experience level and how current that experience is in the type you are flying. A new tailwheel pilot or someone who has been out of a tailwheel airplane for a good while, sure... transition to three point or go around.

As suspected I stirred the pot a bit much. My thoughts on this really come from what I've observed. I have about 800 hours of tailwheel time and I'm scared to death to do anything other than a 3-point. I've personally witnessed 5 ground loops. All resulted in aircraft damage. And every single one lost control during a wheel landing as the aircraft was slowing through the range where you have limited rudder control and the tailwheel isn't down yet. It is probably a bit drastic of me to say it shouldn't be done, but I won't do it in my airplane for a while and without some very good instruction. On that note though, the original post I made was referring more to light, short-coupled airplanes. My pacer seems dead set against going straight without some effort on the pilot's part...

Couple of things jump off the screen at me here. First off is that you might have a physical problem with your airplane. Wouldn't be the first taildragger I have heard of that had a slightly bent tailwheel. By that I mean just bent enough to give you problems, but not enough to be noticed with visual inspection.

Second is that you sound very gun shy. Your airplane wants to act up and you have seen multiple ground loops and you are afraid of ground looping your own airplane and being out the cost of the damage. In short, you are afraid of of wheel landings. I know because I had the same feelings when I first started working on wheel landings way back when. Get with a good instructor and go fly and do nothing but wheel landings until you feed comfortable doing them and gain enough confidence to do them solo.

On that note, someone made mention of larger aircraft. I have about 100 hours divided between Beech 18s and DC-3s. While I believe it's possible to land these airplanes in a 3-point attitude, that isn't optimal because a hard landing could damage aft fuselage structure in airplanes that heavy. The difference in my mind is that if I were to lose control for some reason, I have differential power to help with recovery.The bigger, heavier airplanes like to track straight.

Here again, you sound unsure of the airplane. You can three point a Twin Beech. In fact, if I recall correctly, a three point landing was the procedure described in the POH. Granted, it wheel lands much, much better. Part of the reason behind not three pointing the -18 was the amount of power and lack of visibility to slow it down to a three point profile, plus you would blank out the rudders really bad during the roundout and flare. Much more docile airplane if landed on the mains. Plus, with the lockable tailwheel, if you had the tail in the air, you had more directional control than if you only have a tailwheel locked in one position.

Also, just because they are bigger and heavier, doesn't mean they will always track straight. See my point above about a damaged tailwheel. Company I flew for had a C-45 that tracked straight as long as the tailwheel was locked. As soon as you unlocked it, the airplane got bad case of tailwheel jitters.

 

[inigo88]

I wouldn't say any tailwheel airplane. It is a great recommendation for ones with spring steel landing gear, but if you are lucky enough to have a set of fat oleo struts, you can plant with forward pressure.

I stand very corrected. And great points all around! For as low time as I still am, I certainly won't be forcing the mains back down from a bounce for a good while (and this is more of a "do as I say not as I do thing," because I have already made the mistake and fortunately kept things under control... barely). At this point I'm just trying to stay humble, learn from the experienced guys like yourself, and try to stay groundloop free.

 

[WacoFan]

Ctab is the pro! T-cart, if he were still around would be a great resource as well.

I will reiterate Ctabs comments on tailwheel maintenance/problems. Those can be a little tricky to diagnose but he was spot on for talking about that - I'd take a real close look at that Pacers tailwheel and how it is rigged up. I don't have a ton of time in Pacers, but the ones I flew didn't seem to dart or dodge or have any less ability to track straight than a lot of other taildraggers. They did seem to be more responsive to commands more quickly than say a Cub or a Chief or T-craft - but that is not the same as darting or not tracking straight. I'd get that tailwheel and assembly looked at.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

your more knowledgable on the 140 than me but I have around 100 hours in one and was taught to always wheel land it in crosswinds and I do. Is that the wrong way to go about crosswinds in a 140?

A bigger issue, specific to certain aircraft, is prop clearance.

The Pawnee I am flying? You would have to try pretty hard for a prop strike- jamming the brakes at 80kts I would guess.

The banner tow guys flying J-5's with huge props and no clearance? 3 point is the only way they are keeping their jobs for any length of time.

Depends on the airplane, depends on conditions, depends on what the boss says to do.

After that, personal preference. It isn't a "right" or "wrong" thing, and generalizations don't really apply in the real world.

 

[jrh]

I sensed that.

Look, I'm trying to have an intelligent discussion which might help us all become better pilots.

You haven't contributed anything but snarky one line replies since Page 1.

What's the deal? I honestly want to hear your thoughts. Obviously you have a strong opinion about the "those who have and those who will" remark, but unless you expound on it a bit, nobody will gain anything. I'm trying to keep an open mind. Let me have it.

 

[Inverted25]

A bigger issue, specific to certain aircraft, is prop clearance.

The Pawnee I am flying? You would have to try pretty hard for a prop strike- jamming the brakes at 80kts I would guess.

The banner tow guys flying J-5's with huge props and no clearance? 3 point is the only way they are keeping their jobs for any length of time.

Depends on the airplane, depends on conditions, depends on what the boss says to do.

After that, personal preference. It isn't a "right" or "wrong" thing, and generalizations don't really apply in the real world.

Heck how the Pawnee sits it looks like a wheel landing in a three point from the pilots perspective. The 140 has plenty of prop clearance as well. He was alluding to the fact that the gear is too springy as to why he doesnt wheel land one or push forward to save a bounce. I happen to wheel land 140 a lot in gusty conditions and save bounces with forward pressure during wheel landings so I will just say to each there own. Not saying my way is better just that it's what I feel works best for the 140 I fly

 

[TwoTwoLeft]

Wheel landings are for pilots who can't 3-point...



Funny... I remember hearing something similar with retract pilots too. It goes something like, "There are those who have laded gear up and those who......"

I've done one but not the other... HAHA

I'd say during your first 100 hours of tailwheel you're a ground loop magnet.

There are a lot of things to consider. How short-coupled the airplane is, how much weight sits on the tailwheel, forward visibility, heel brakes, toe brakes, no brakes, bungee gear, spring steel/aluminum, oleo struts, BIG tires, tail wheel mechanisms, Flaps, VGs, LOTS of horsepower, no horsepower, prop clearance... ALL this matters... Go from one to the other without doing your homework and even the most "high time" TW pilot will get their ass handed to them.

 

[Ian_J]

Houston and jrh

Just a few questions - if JRH stops flying tailwheels today and has never ground-looped, does that invalidate Houston's saying?

Are there other "there are pilots who have done x and those who will" sayings?

In all seriousness, Houston, everyone knows the intent of the saying you mentioned. Your pithy comments about wisdom and humility make absolutely no sense in context with jrh's very reasoned questions and explanations.

 

[jrh]

He was alluding to the fact that the gear is too springy as to why he doesnt wheel land one or push forward to save a bounce. I happen to wheel land 140 a lot in gusty conditions and save bounces with forward pressure during wheel landings so I will just say to each there own.

Yes, exactly. More than one way to skin a cat.

I would also like to point out I've done three point landings in very strong, gusty winds, and never felt out of control. I hear many pilots talk about avoiding three point landings because they think the slower airspeed immediately prior to touchdown will result in them losing control.

From what I've seen, if the wind is too strong to maintain control during a three point landing, it will also be too strong to maintain control during a wheel landing as the aircraft slows down and tail begins to drop.

In other words, if the crosswind is "landable" it will be landable using either technique. If it's strong enough to prevent one technique, it's strong enough to prevent both techniques, and you ought to head for another airport.

Again, YMMV, particularly in aircraft other than 140s. I'm only speaking from my experience in the 300-something hours of tailwheel flying I've done. I wouldn't be surprised if an old timer found a way to prove me wrong.

 

[Houston]

Look, I'm trying to have an intelligent discussion which might help us all become better pilots.

You haven't contributed anything but snarky one line replies since Page 1.

What's the deal? I honestly want to hear your thoughts. Obviously you have a strong opinion about the "those who have and those who will" remark, but unless you expound on it a bit, nobody will gain anything. I'm trying to keep an open mind. Let me have it.

You think that might have something to do with the tone of your fist quote?

Your observation that people can go a lifetime without a ground loop is obvious to everyone including the pilots who use the "two kinds" statement to make a point. That response was like when someone tells a joke and one fellow in the group responds with why the physics of the joke wouldn't be correct. "The Road Runner couldn't really do that." Yes. We all know the Road Runner couldn't really do that.

The point of the line is to emphasize the challenging nature associated with operating a tail dragger. A point amplified upon by many of the comments in this thread.

 

[jrh]

You think that might have something to do with the tone of your fist quote?

Your observation that people can go a lifetime without a ground loop is obvious to everyone including the pilots who use the "two kinds" statement to make a point. That response was like when someone tells a joke and one fellow in the group responds with why the physics of the joke wouldn't be correct. "The Road Runner couldn't really do that." Yes. We all know the Road Runner couldn't really do that.

The point of the line is to emphasize the challenging nature associated with operating a tail dragger. A point amplified upon by many of the comments in this thread.

Thanks for the clarification.

I think this is a case of words on the interwebs not accurately portraying the tone you or I intended.

You'd be surprised how many pilots I've met who really *do* think it's inevitable to ground loop...probably, in part, due to that saying being thrown around so much. Tailwheel flying is mysterious to the majority of pilots, especially low time pilots, and they oftentimes take sayings such as "those who have and those who will" to be literal. The shameful thing about such an idea is that it can both scare pilots away from pursuing tailwheel flying, as well as give an "out" to a pilot who's ground looped (particularly low time, weekend warrior pilots), rather than be forced to think seriously about why they lost control.

My original post wasn't intended as an attack on you. I intended to set the record straight for all the pilots who are lurking on this forum, trying to learn something about tailwheel flying.

Of course, maybe turning this thread into three pages of verbal sparring was even more educational to lurkers than a quick little one line saying. Hopefully so. And for that, I thank you!

 

[drunkenbeagle]

Heck how the Pawnee sits it looks like a wheel landing in a three point from the pilots perspective. The 140 has plenty of prop clearance as well. He was alluding to the fact that the gear is too springy as to why he doesnt wheel land one or push forward to save a bounce. I happen to wheel land 140 a lot in gusty conditions and save bounces with forward pressure during wheel landings so I will just say to each there own. Not saying my way is better just that it's what I feel works best for the 140 I fly

Heck, I learned how to wheel land in a 140. More challenging, of course, with the springy gear. But also makes you super accurate at arresting the descent rate to zero...

I think everyone was trying to say the same thing here, glad the sparring is over.

 

[WacoFan]

I would wheel land this. I would also three-point it. I would sell my daughter for it.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

I would wheel land this. I would also three-point it. I would sell my daughter for it.

Wish I had a daughter to sell...

 

[Houston]

You'd be surprised how many pilots I've met who really *do* think it's inevitable to ground loop...probably, in part, due to that saying being thrown around so much.

I would be surprised indeed since I've worked with a whole lot of pilots and I have yet to meet one who thought that way. My experience leans more the other direction with too many pilots underestimating the potential difficulty and lacking a comprehensive understanding of why the problem exists in the first place.

 

[jrh]

I would be surprised indeed since I've worked with a whole lot of pilots and I have yet to meet one who thought that way. My experience leans more the other direction with too many pilots underestimating the potential difficulty and lacking a comprehensive understanding of why the problem exists in the first place.

Fair enough. It's funny how one's experiences can lead in very different directions, to different conclusions.

Just curious, what's your background with all of this? Flight instructor? Owner of a tailwheel aircraft? I spent a long time as an instructor, but never actually taught tailwheel flying for more than a few hours.

 

[Houston]

Just curious, what's your background with all of this? Flight instructor? Owner of a tailwheel aircraft? I spent a long time as an instructor, but never actually taught tailwheel flying for more than a few hours.

Yes, both.

 

[FlyDutchman]

Wheel landings are for pilots who can't 3-point...



Funny... I remember hearing something similar with retract pilots too. It goes something like, "There are those who have laded gear up and those who......"

I've done one but not the other... HAHA

I'd say during your first 100 hours of tailwheel you're a ground loop magnet.

There are a lot of things to consider. How short-coupled the airplane is, how much weight sits on the tailwheel, forward visibility, heel brakes, toe brakes, no brakes, bungee gear, spring steel/aluminum, oleo struts, BIG tires, tail wheel mechanisms, Flaps, VGs, LOTS of horsepower, no horsepower, prop clearance... ALL this matters... Go from one to the other without doing your homework and even the most "high time" TW pilot will get their ass handed to them.

Hey guys.

Been reading these forums for years and I finally decided to get an account and make my first post.

I completely agree with TwoTwoLeft as I believe everyone else does. All planes are different, all pilots are different, all landing strips are different, and that leads to an innumeral amount of different situations and techniques. Thanks for sharing your various opinions.

I do wheel landings pretty much 100% of the time because that's what my boss wants and I think the challenge makes it fun. I'm definitely not saying that wheel landings are the only way to go, just that the strips I fly into and the plane/ my experience make me fly that way.

That being said I also wanted to comment on how tailwheels land depending on how they are loaded since i haven't seen it posted. When I have my boss and a whole bunch of gear loaded in the back of the ole Super Cub, it lands a whole lot different than just me in there. Tail heavy (farther aft CG) landings make things much more difficult since you are moving that CG much farther from the wheels and increasing the moment wanting to ground loop the plane.

Thanks. Hope you all appreciate my input. And congrats to the OP for their first tailwheel experience!

 

[RICHARD5]

There are two kinds of tailwheel pilots. Those who have ground looped and those who will.

Thats only half the quote. You haven't ground looped until you've ground looped a DC-3.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

Hey guys.

Been reading these forums for years and I finally decided to get an account and make my first post.

I completely agree with TwoTwoLeft as I believe everyone else does. All planes are different, all pilots are different, all landing strips are different, and that leads to an innumeral amount of different situations and techniques. Thanks for sharing your various opinions.

I do wheel landings pretty much 100% of the time because that's what my boss wants and I think the challenge makes it fun. I'm definitely not saying that wheel landings are the only way to go, just that the strips I fly into and the plane/ my experience make me fly that way.

That being said I also wanted to comment on how tailwheels land depending on how they are loaded since i haven't seen it posted. When I have my boss and a whole bunch of gear loaded in the back of the ole Super Cub, it lands a whole lot different than just me in there. Tail heavy (farther aft CG) landings make things much more difficult since you are moving that CG much farther from the wheels and increasing the moment wanting to ground loop the plane.

Thanks. Hope you all appreciate my input. And congrats to the OP for their first tailwheel experience!

Good first post, please stick around!