Sully and the 1500h rule

DPApilot said:
Don't tell CK I'm a bad pilot. I was hired at a regional flying Tprops at 600 hours.....
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that's plenty of time....Shoot I remeber during one of the recent 'boom' periods people were getting hired with wet mutli-commercial tickets. I know of a few that were hired sub-200 TT. I would be scared shltless going from a seminole to a turbo prop with paying pax in the back. A jet would be even worse.....

the school I trained at could not keep cfi's. Mesaba was clearing them and they had class dates soon after starting as a CFI. It sucked to be a student there are that time. The CFI's didnt give a sheet as they had already made it to 'the show'.....:sarcasm:
 
z987k said:
I'd suggest we make the ATP require 1500 PIC not TT. Aside from being required for a 121 FO now, I'd argue that 250 PIC is no where near enough experience for what an ATP entitles you to do.
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I agree or maybe have a Master ATP cert requiring 1500 hours PIC in multi-engined aircraft. My real problem with the new ATP rule is that it doesn't really raise the bar for PIC experience. I think it will cheapen the ATP as the PIC-SIC mix will probably get worse, on average.
 
A Life Aloft said:
So you know him personally..........enough to be certain that he is a tool bag? I've never seen or read of him pandering to anyone. Why would/should he? He certainly does not need the attention. Seems that he has a pretty decent and full life. Where have you seen him "paints(ing) a picture to the media of a bunch of haphazard teenagers flying planes which are too big for our britches, having never seen a day of training in our lives." Care to reference an article or an interview or in his testimony to Congress where he states anything remotely akin to this?
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Sorry buddy, I'm not going to dig through the myriad of clips in which he trash talks the regionals. You obviously have not watched him on cbs much. I do not need to meet him to know he is a tool bag, any more than I need to meet you to know you defend Sully. It's obvious.
 
JEP said:
..I know of a few that were hired sub-200 TT. I would be scared shltless going from a seminole to a turbo prop with paying pax in the back. A jet would be even worse.....
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Actually, a jet wouldn't be worse since they have all the bells and whistles to pretty much do everything for you. That's the general problem with 250 hour wonders who got hired to a regional, they may have a couple thousand hours by now but that doesn't guarantee they've learned how to actually fly yet. "We're cleared the visual, you don't really need to slow to 180 right now and set the autopilot up for a 9 mile final to join the ILS..." "How about we actually turn around that cloud and not fly through it..." etc, etc.

I think Sully is largely spot on.
 
99driver said:
Sorry buddy, I'm not going to dig through the myriad of clips in which he trash talks the regionals. You obviously have not watched him on cbs much. I do not need to meet him to know he is a tool bag, any more than I need to meet you to know you defend Sully. It's obvious.
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So you have no specifics then? And yes I have I believe watched, listened to and read most of his interviews. This isn't about defending anyone, it's about you proving your insulting generalizations with the facts. Shouldn't be that difficult, since you claim he has done this so often.

99driver said:
I think Sully is a tool bag who says whatever will get him the most attention. He panders to the uninformed, and spreads hysteria about the regional industry.
He is right about some things (like that we are underpaid), but he paints a picture to the media of a bunch of haphazard teenagers flying planes which are too big for our britches, having never seen a day of training in our lives.
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A Life Aloft said:
So you have no specifics then? And yes I have I believe watched, listened to and read most of his interviews. This isn't about defending anyone, it's about you proving your insulting generalizations with the facts. Shouldn't be that difficult, since you claim he has done this so often.
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I gave you my reason. Sounds like you want to be in a pissing contest. Let me know how that works out. Conversion over.
 
99driver said:
I gave you my reason. Sounds like you want to be in a pissing contest. Let me know how that works out. Conversion over.
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You gave no reason actually......just your opinion/point of view and I have already had my post coffee leak. I have been completely civil. I merely asked for specific examples/proof of what Captain Sullenberger has said. So instead of providing any statements/quotes where he has actually said what you have claimed, you make excuses and leave. If that's how you roll, okey dokey.
 
A Life Aloft said:
You gave no reason actually......just your opinion/point of view and I have already had my post coffee leak. I have been completely civil. I merely asked for specific examples/proof of what Captain Sullenberger has said. So instead of providing any statements/quotes where he has actually said what you have claimed, you make excuses and leave. If that's how you roll, okey dokey.
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Wait! Are you asking for him to source? The "Qutch Universe" must be going wild on the secret squirrel gmail underground!
 
Rocketman99 said:
Actually, a jet wouldn't be worse since they have all the bells and whistles to pretty much do everything for you. That's the general problem with 250 hour wonders who got hired to a regional, they may have a couple thousand hours by now but that doesn't guarantee they've learned how to actually fly yet. "We're cleared the visual, you don't really need to slow to 180 right now and set the autopilot up for a 9 mile final to join the ILS..." "How about we actually turn around that cloud and not fly through it..." etc, etc.

I think Sully is largely spot on.
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I agree. Had I had gone straight to a jet or hell, even the Saab, I wouldn't have learned much about flying. Going to the 1900 doing the same stuff, no autopilot, 8 legs a day, in bad WX did teach me something about flying though. And that was that I suck at it!
 
DPApilot said:
I agree. Had I had gone straight to a jet or hell, even the Saab, I wouldn't have learned much about flying. Going to the 1900 doing the same stuff, no autopilot, 8 legs a day, in bad WX did teach me something about flying though. And that was that I suck at it!
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I think I learned more flying King Airs and Super King Airs for 250 hours than in the 3500 hours in jets that followed.
 
Boris Badenov said:
What sort of proof would you like? I mean, there's the rub, isn't it? Accidents are so vanishingly rare that we're forced to speak about the "quality" of pilots through anecdotal accounts. My anecdotal experience suggests to me that pilots who have dealt with real-world, serious, it's-your-ass-in-the-seat decisions are wildly superior to pilots who have had some canned "emergencies" they've already read the cheat-sheet for thrown at them in an air-conditioned simulator. IMHO, you simply cannot simulate the cold lump in your tum-tum when you're in an airplane and something is going Seriously Wrong. And that sort of experience comes with, eh, experience.

I dunno, maybe there's someone out there with a lot of apocryphal stories about how they had some billion hour freighthound freeze up in a tight spot, but the 22 year old, 300 hour pup from State Aviation Academy saved them from certain destruction thanks to their 400-level Human Factors class. I make no claims to Statistical Authenticity. But I will be waiting to hear those stories with bated breath.
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I can give you freight-hound stories of them freezing up in canned emergencies they've already read the cheat-sheet for in the air conditioned simulator. Even ones with a spifr AK 135 background.

I'll say it again, through out my career in 121, most of which has involved training and/or evaluating, past experience manifests itself in certain ways. However, the performance of individuals in this environment is strongly tied to the work they put in.
 
Polar742 said:
I'll say it again, through out my career in 121, most of which has involved training and/or evaluating, past experience manifests itself in certain ways. However, the performance of individuals in this environment is strongly tied to the work they put in.
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I think that's also very true, but would you agree there's generally a favorable difference based on prior experience?
 
Rocketman99 said:
I think that's also very true, but would you agree there's generally a difference based on prior experience?
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Sure there is a difference. Guys that had 40 years of steam time can put the jet on the needles damn near every time which is great for steep turns. They seem to struggle more with managing the aircraft automation, crew and running a cockpit. Guys that have tons of glass time may not have AS sharp hands, but do fine flying (still have to meet ATP stds to get signed off) seem to do a much better time managing a 2 pilot flight deck and the automation.

At the regionals, I had furloughed Delta pilots to the fresh off the CFI program. The Delta pilots that were pissed they were swinging gear at a regional weren't really in the cockpit. The ones that while pissed, were professional were extraordinary to fly with and I learned a lot. I could say the same for the CFI new hires. Those that thought they were owed a job and should be hired into the left seat were tough to fly with. Those that had the right attitude were great.
 
Rocketman99 said:
I think that's also very true, but would you agree there's generally a favorable difference based on prior experience?
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I certainly think there is. That said, it's a generalization. I've seen a few 400 hour guys rock it during an actual emergency and I've seen a 3000 hire ext F18 driver get confused (constantly) when cleared for a visual approach. However... MOST of the time, a 1500 guy who's instructed/flown freight/whatever is going to have more to add to the conversation than a guy with a wet ink commercial. And because we are talking about large numbers of pilots, I think ANYTHING to improve the average is a good thing.

As far as Sully goes... I've sat next to the guy a few times on the jumpseat (when he was still commuting to Charlotte) and he was the nicest guy in the world, as well as very bright and informed on issues. I think he's right about the general lower level of safety at the regional level due to the lack of experience AND do to the lack of training given at the regional level both during initial and during recurrent. But, lots of regional guys are going to feel like they are getting pointed at and haters gonna hate.
 
Boris Badenov said:
I dunno, I'm confused. You say he's being ridiculous in one breath, then you say that no one gets on with less than 1500, anyway, in the next. Like, if a 1500 rule wouldn't hurt anyone, and is a reasonable bar to entry to blasting around the troposphere with 50, 70, or 90 trusting sheeple in the back, why not have the rule? *puzzle*

I never flew with an F/O who had less than about a grand of flight time, but in my extremely limited and no doubt statistically insignificant experience, the guys who had gazillions of hours herding a 208 or something similar around in thundersnow were a hell of a lot more useful than the guys who could tell me how wide the LOC signal was at 7.3 miles. *shrug*
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I've flown with some pretty green folks. And I've flown with my co workers who have as much or more time than I have. There's a big difference! My current FO (he's a real get paid to fly FO. Not a Pay to play one) is sub 800hrs and sharp as a tack. But you still see hints of his inexperience here and there. He's a good learner, humble, and a pleasure to fly with though.
 
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