Sully and the 1500h rule

I thought cmill's initial post was right on. IMHO, a good pilot is one who A) Won't kill you or himself by being stupid and B) You won't WANT to kill after X hours with him. Now, obviously there are plenty of pilots (the vast majority of them, actually) who fulfill both criteria (except for DPA, obviously) and they come from all sorts of backgrounds. But as to what you can KNOW about them just by looking at their resume, I think the 2000 hours of SPIFR guy can pretty much check box A off, whereas the other guy...well, maybe, who knows!? Which doesn't seem that far (to me) from what Sully was saying.

And lest you think that this is more "well this is how *I* did it, so it must be right", I think the same thing about "Legacy" 121s tending to hire experienced 121 PICs over experienced whatever else. Like, would I make a great 747 pilot? Of course I would, because I'm Bob Hoover's lovechild and can fly anything perfectly. But I don't think it's crazy that they tend to hire guys who have BOTH a broad range of experience with lots of hours AND experience doing something very much like what they'll be doing for their new employer. It's not either/or, or at least it shouldn't be.
 
Boris Badenov said:
I thought cmill's initial post was right on. IMHO, a good pilot is one who A) Won't kill you or himself by being stupid and B) You won't WANT to kill after X hours with him. Now, obviously there are plenty of pilots (the vast majority of them, actually) who fulfill both criteria (except for DPA, obviously) and they come from all sorts of backgrounds. But as to what you can KNOW about them just by looking at their resume, I think the 2000 hours of SPIFR guy can pretty much check box A off, whereas the other guy...well, maybe, who knows!? Which doesn't seem that far (to me) from what Sully was saying.

And lest you think that this is more "well this is how *I* did it, so it must be right", I think the same thing about "Legacy" 121s tending to hire experienced 121 PICs over experienced whatever else. Like, would I make a great 747 pilot? Of course I would, because I'm Bob Hoover's lovechild and can fly anything perfectly. But I don't think it's crazy that they tend to hire guys who have BOTH a broad range of experience with lots of hours AND experience doing something very much like what they'll be doing for their new employer. It's not either/or, or at least it shouldn't be.
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Chuck Yeager asked me for flying tips once.
 
My issue with the new rule is the 500 hours of 50nm XC needed for an ATP. I have about 700 dual given out of my 1200 TT. XC? about 300. I'm building time concurrently teaching, and flying XC solo. The XC time is fun, sure, but I'm becoming a much better pilot by teaching. When you're flying XC solo, you're a pilot. When you're teaching, you're a pilot, a teacher, a mentor, a psychologist, a ______ .....

I'd love to petition the FAA to have dual given count in lieu of XC time towards the ATP. Thoughts?
 
DE727UPS said:
Strongly disagree. Any airline will put the cheapest body in the seat that meets the government's min standard. Leave it up to an airline and you'll get cheap min standard every time. That's why we got unions....
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Two separate issues. Do I think the new rule will improve safety? No, as some exceptionally qualified commercial pilots will be passed over for pretty mediocre ATPs. We will see some ATPs with 250 hours PIC. Building SIC time will be a new priority.

Unions? Educate me, I went from military to corporate. Do union contracts specify hiring mins above government mins or was that higher standard organic? What do captains think about the new competition from within, as their ATP FO is type-rated?
 
I hear where you're coming from, doc, but I think the XC is a pretty good thing to have. If for no other reason than for dealing with enroute weather. You can be the sharpest stick and rudder pilot in the world and able to fly an ILS to the runway with your eyes closed, but you're still going to be up the proverbial brown creek sans paddle if you fly in to a Level 5 or severe icing.
 
Pilot Fighter said:
What do captains think about the new competition from within, as their ATP FO is type-rated?
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They wouldn't really be competition in a union environment, would they? Seniority is everything. There are tons of ex-Comair guys with gajillions of RJ hours swinging gear for dudes who upgraded at company minumums.
 
Boris Badenov said:
They wouldn't really be competition in a union environment, would they? Seniority is everything. There are tons of ex-Comair guys with gajillions of RJ hours swinging gear for dudes who upgraded at company minumums.
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I'm an econ major, I can't help but think that every FO being legally qualified as PIC isn't going to put a downward pressure on captain pay over time. There are more FOs than captains. It is possible that the distinction between captains and FOs could be challenged from within.
 
Well, that's a whole different argument, I think. IMHO, if there's no hierarchy between PIC and SIC in a cockpit, you're better off just having one pilot. But I've flown as SIC with a PIC type and as PIC with guys who have a PIC type, and there was never any serious confusion about who was signing the paperwork and therefore the "final authority", etc etc. At least not for long! ;)
 
Would I hire a high school graduate or someone with a college degree? College degree. Why? Not because of the sheepskin, but because of what that person learned while earning the sheepskin. Hanging around other guys striving for better things in life, putting in long hours, struggling through setbacks, fighting self doubt, hoping that it is all worth it, and not quitting. That's who I want working for me.

And that's who I want driving the plane when I'm sitting in the back. It's not the 1,250 hour difference, it's what you learn during those hours, sitting next to others doing the same thing, discussing things inside the cockpit and out, wondering if it will all be worth it despite the stories, and not quitting.

If you want to quit, then work at Starbucks at an airport. See how it feels serving coffee to a regional FO who's making $18k but fighting the good fight, building time, reaching for the next rung. And understanding that the blender is the most exciting piece of machinery you'll ever operate.
 
Boris Badenov said:
Well, that's a whole different argument, I think. IMHO, if there's no hierarchy between PIC and SIC in a cockpit, you're better off just having one pilot. But I've flown as SIC with a PIC type and as PIC with guys who have a PIC type, and there was never any serious confusion about who was signing the paperwork and therefore the "final authority", etc etc. At least not for long! ;)
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I wasn't suggesting any flight deck issues. I was just suggesting it could change union politics. It reminds me of working for UPS in college. The part-timers couldn't vote on the contract as they would vote themselves a raise at the expense of the drivers.
 
cmill said:
I don't exactly have a way with words, but:

Pilot A: "I flew spifr cargo for 2000 hours"
Well, you must have some idea of what you're doing, because you're still alive.

Pilot B: "I got hired on at brand x with 275 hours and have 2000 hours right seat in an RJ."
Good for you.
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I think the former scenario may start happening more often. I thought my CFI years were great, but I do have 2K spifr, and I definitely see the value of it. What I think is going to happen is more guys will cut their teeth spifr to reach the 1500 more quickly.
My suggestion to the CFIs: use this opportunity to get some great experience flying in the ifr system in equipment that is faster and more complex than a seminole... just get in and get out. Don't become a lifer spifr.
 
I see what you mean (btw, I was also a part-timer for UPS after high-school...sounds like very little changes), but I have a hard time imagining Unions ever giving up Seniority under any circumstance...it's the foundation of the whole thing. Now, if you mean it might erode support for Unions from within from guys who are PIC typed and figure they can do it just as well as the greybeards...meh, maybe. But, I mean, the greybeards have been pulling up the ladder behind them for as long as there have been pilots, and it seems like most junior pilots are happy to dream about one day being one of the greybeards and pulling up the ladder behind THEM.
 
wheelsup said:
No doubt the guys who do that beat their chest and think they are skygods. Unfortunately the reality is very different, after ~3000 hours in the left seat it's been my experience that backround and TT plays a small role in one's ability to operate an airplane safely and efficiently.
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Yup.

News flash: the most important hour at 1,500 is 1,501.

Carry on.
 
99driver said:
I think the former scenario may start happening more often. I thought my CFI years were great, but I do have 2K spifr, and I definitely see the value of it. What I think is going to happen is more guys will cut their teeth spifr to reach the 1500 more quickly.
My suggestion to the CFIs: use this opportunity to get some great experience flying in the ifr system in equipment that is faster and more complex than a seminole... just get in and get out. Don't become a lifer spifr.
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Don't you have to atleast have 135 ifr mins for almost every spifr job? Im just a lowly CFI, but I don't think i wanna jump ship just to get the last 300 hours. Now if I could do that instead of CFIing I'd jump all over that!
 
I think Sully is spot on, and just stating the cold, hard facts. Regional airlines (with 250 hours as the minimum) were indeed entry level jobs for many pilots in the past. I had quite a bunch of low time peeps in my class, including one with 400TT/30ME.
 
grchase90 said:
Don't you have to atleast have 135 ifr mins for almost every spifr job? Im just a lowly CFI, but I don't think i wanna jump ship just to get the last 300 hours. Now if I could do that instead of CFIing I'd jump all over that!
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Ya... 1200. I'm just saying that freight, while definitely not (in my opinion) a good career option, it is a good experience builder. Plus, I think most of us freight dawgs look back on our 135 days as some of the most enjoyable flying we've ever done.
The way I see it, if you want to be way ahead of the game when you go 121, then first get a bit-o 135 under your belt. It's not going to "make or break" you, but it will help build your experience and confidence more quickly. My experience is CFI, 135, 121, so maybe I'm just bias toward my own route.
 
charlie1017 said:
I think Sully is spot on, and just stating the cold, hard facts. Regional airlines (with 250 hours as the minimum) were indeed entry level jobs for many pilots in the past. I had quite a bunch of low time peeps in my class, including one with 400TT/30ME.
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I think Sully is a tool bag who says whatever will get him the most attention. He panders to the uninformed, and spreads hysteria about the regional industry.
He is right about some things (like that we are underpaid), but he paints a picture to the media of a bunch of haphazard teenagers flying planes which are too big for our britches, having never seen a day of training in our lives.
 
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