Sully and the 1500h rule

ArcherII

ArcherII

Well-Known Member
He's saying that it is for the better yet states that 1500h experience is minimal at best, although still better than 250h. I could agree with him on that one, but...
Reaching 500h is just hard enough and can take you years to accomplish. Once you get into that goal, you can instruct or do anything you'd do. Still, CFI'ing or doing night cargo could provide you with great tools for your future.

http://sullysullenberger.com/#/blog

The thing that puts me down is the way he criticizes regional pilots, telling passengers basically that it'd still be unsafe to ride in a regional jet or prop since pilots are just greenhorns, because they didn't had the chance to experience different weathers or scenarios or whatever. Like if a new-hire has never flown before.

Now, I know that 121 is a completely different game. They'd tell you they'll teach you how to fly again.
So would the 121 pilots here please enhace my understanding on how much off-course are we, 135/91 pilots, from the nesessary knowledge, experience, expertise or whatever?

I'm asking this because, what he wrote seemed like an unnesessary rant against regional "greenhorns". what are your thoughts on this matter? Please tell me whether I'm behind the power curve.
 
I had 500 hours 4 months after I started instructing. 1500 is not that hard to reach in a quick time frame (under 18 months). No, I don't think he really knows what he's talking about when throwing commuters under the bus, I think he has an agenda, but I don't really care.

I've flown with numerous low timers and high timers, I never ask what someone's background or TT is when meeting them because to me it doesn't matter.
 
I've been teaching for about a year and a half and have over 1000 Dual Given. I'm just shy of 1500TT, but WAY short (250) of the required XC for ATP. At this pace, I'd probably have to teach several years to reach 500.
 
Given his education and experience, I expected a little more analysis from Sully - something a little more insightful than "more hours are better". I'm an ATP and I don't think the new rules are a step forward in safety. In the short-term, airlines are now going to be hiring minimally qualified ATPs just to fill the seats instead of hiring the best pilots based on their own criteria. The airlines have always known that 1500 hours will come fast in the right-seat and focused on hiring the best pilot, a pilot with quality time and an individual that would fit and continue to develop.

It will be interesting to see what happens. I think that airline pay will increase and we will see the shortage filled through retention, ATPs from non-airline gigs, and from the ranks of the military. This new rule sounds like a gift to military pilots to me.

Edit: I think that starting and average FO pay will increase. Average Captain pay will probably stay the same or decrease in the kong-term.
 
In 1996 Chautauqua's minimums were 1500 hours tt and 500 multi-engine, and that was for a candidate who was willing to "invest" $10,000 in the FlightSafety newhire training program. It wasn't even a guaranteed job.

That's not to say that was the right thing or the wrong thing. It is what it is. But we all found ways to build time and you would too.

Personally, I did a little flight instructing in college, then got on with one of those companies that did 2 day multi-engine ratings after college. About a year later I had the bare minimum number of hours to fly 135, and got hired flying checks, first in a Bonanza, and later in a Cessna 402. After a year of doing that I was hired to fly a 19 seat turboprop for about $15,000 a year.

I'm not saying you have to do what I did. I will say this. I was a better pilot after flight instructing than I was before I was a flight instructor. I was a better pilot after I flew freight than I was before. And I was a far better pilot after flying a 19 seat turboprop with no autopilot than I was before or since. (It's all been downhill since then).

If a clown like me can build the time in a few years, then you guys can too. Be creative, have fun, and take pictures. Don't wish it away because I promise you that 15 years from now you will look back upon that time fondly.
 
ZapBrannigan said:
and got hired flying checks
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Good luck finding one of those gigs these days!

My take on it is it is what it is either way, and won't likely change, so you deal with it and do what you can to move up. I will say, there are more CFIs at my school than I even have students, and we have one airplane. The market is definitely becoming saturated and the available avenues to gain experience are definitely different than they were 20 years ago. But if anything it will weed out the people who don't want to put the time or work in, meaning more jobs for the people that stick with it.
 
cmill said:
I don't exactly have a way with words, but:

Pilot A: "I flew spifr cargo for 2000 hours"
Well, you must have some idea of what you're doing, because you're still alive.

Pilot B: "I got hired on at brand x with 275 hours and have 2000 hours right seat in an RJ."
Good for you.
Click to expand...
No doubt the guys who do that beat their chest and think they are skygods. Unfortunately the reality is very different, after ~3000 hours in the left seat it's been my experience that backround and TT plays a small role in one's ability to operate an airplane safely and efficiently.
 
cmill said:
Pilot A: "I flew spifr cargo for 2000 hours"
Well, you must have some idea of what you're doing, because you're still alive.
Click to expand...


Thats pretty much what I was told when I interviewed for my current job. Went from spifr cargo to pt91/135 jet charter.

The thing is hes kinda right and kinda wrong. While a pilot at 1500 hours will should be better than at 250. It all depends on the person. Ive flown with some 500hr pilots that are awesome and some 3000+ hr pilots that suck. It all depends on the person, and his/her knowledge and ability to fly.
 
I notice this with captains. Often times the ones that upgraded very quickly are a lot more difficult to fly with than the ones who sat on reserve for several years. YMMV.

Also, even in the most difficult situations this job is not difficult and a thousand hours in that plane is plenty. Pt 135 night freight takes more skill IMO.
 
wheelsup said:
No doubt the guys who do that beat their chest and think they are skygods. Unfortunately the reality is very different, after ~3000 hours in the left seat it's been my experience that backround and TT plays a small role in one's ability to operate an airplane safely and efficiently.
Click to expand...


You do realize that you're using your qualifications to determine the qualifications (or lack thereof,) that someone else should have, right?

I know its a cop out, but at some point we have to ask ourselves the real question:
What actually qualifies someone to sit in that seat? Is it a wide and diverse experience, or is it intensive training and meticulous on the job experience?

I don't know what the answer is. What I do know is that for all my hours and "experience," is that everyone else's job is easy until you actually have to do it. On the flip side, everyone likes to pretend that they and they alone can do the job that they do.
 
I'm with Zap. I like the new rule. I'm old skool and had to work my way up from nothing via 135 single engine canyon tours and 135 multi engine UPS freight. It made me a better pilot than I was as a 300 hour CFI. You can come up with scenario's where the new rule doesn't help, but I think, in general, it's a step forward to providing a competent and more well rounded 121 F/O. If nothing else, and supply/demand increases new hire pay, that's a winner, too.
 
Pilot Fighter said:
My biggest problem with the new rule is I believe that airlines have always been better judges of airmanship than the government.
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yeah... because a good judge would reduce requirements instead of raising pay to attract more qualified applicants.
 
skypilot6 said:
Thats pretty much what I was told when I interviewed for my current job. Went from spifr cargo to pt91/135 jet charter.

The thing is hes kinda right and kinda wrong. While a pilot at 1500 hours will should be better than at 250. It all depends on the person. Ive flown with some 500hr pilots that are awesome and some 3000+ hr pilots that suck. It all depends on the person, and his/her knowledge and ability to fly.
Click to expand...


I think you're right, but I also think that theres a weeding out process somewhere in there, and a "eff it im lazy" thing going on.

IMHO, I think the 500 hours pilots were hungry for a job, and the 3000 hours guys were just lazy and didn't give a crap. I know which group I would probably fall into.
 
About 6 months ago I was a 300 hour pilot hoping I could get on with a regional before the ATP rule really hit hard. I was indeed bummed that I didn't. I was really, really fortunate to get hired at a 135 schedule operatpr flying a pc12 and a Caravan. I'm nearing 1000tt, and looking back, I would have been nuts to try and 1) get through 121 training and 2) fly the line without being a weight in the FO's seat.

I've learned so much in a short amount of time and I think I'm in a really interesting position in that, I'm building time in a crew environment flying an airplane that's not as complex as a CRJ, and still doing everything hands on for the most part. Not having a CFI background, I think this will be a great stepping stone.

Now looking forward, I can see that 1500 still is a small amount of time in the grand scheme of things.
 
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