Students

All right, OK... yeah, sometimes it sounds a little negative BUT, what do you call a student being screwed out of their money and being given poor training on top of it? POSITIVE? I didn't think so. I simply give an opinion or ask a simple question like "why do you attend the school if they are bending you over?". These students have to pay back these student loans for 20+ years. They should get solid quality training. Not half ass training from schools that are simply trying to capitalize on the aviation training industry boom like Westwind and Pan-AM. Have you noticed you do not hear anything negative about Flight Safety Academy. This is because they are and have been for over twenty years concerned with the quality of their training and nothing else. When the aviation hiring boom is long behind us I predict that only three Schools will be left standing, Flight Safety, Embry Riddle, and UND. These three always have and always will continue to set the standards for the rest to follow. The airlines know it and you should too. Think about it...ILS
 
I have to admit I agree with CLR.

I have ALWAYS heard great things about FSAs program/s. Westwind garunteeing a job as a CFI if you pass thier program seems utterly ridiculous IMO. Just because somebody can pass all the tests doesn't make them a good instructor. An Airline Captain once told me that Instructing is 30% skill and 70% personality. 30% because you are too new at first to know too much and 70% because you have to be willing to learn in order to teach. The best way to learn something is to teach it....same thing my MCSE Instructor told me about a year and a half ago. Being a good instructor entails a LOT more then knowledge...what good is a CFI who has a ton of knowledge but can't convey it or keep the student motivated?

I have been researching flying schools/Academies for a little more then 1 year now and FSA, so far, appears to be head and shoulders above ALL the competition.

That is just my opinion but if you are going to drop more then $50,000/$60,000/$70,000/etc..on a flying education thne the education should be worth it.

This opinion has only been solidified after hearing that my buddy, a current Air Force AC Commander and "full bird Colonel" was being sent to Flight Safety for simulator (refresher I believe) training. When I asked him why he was going to a civilian school he responded, "Flight Safety is perhaps the best training in the world. I know it and the Air Force knows it. We are always getting sent there for one reason or another".

I listen to this guy when he speaks as he has NEVER fed me a line of BS before. And honestly, I hear the same praises from MANY others as well.

Hope this helps you out!


Arky

P.S. This is not to say that all the other schools are bad it's just that if I am going to spend that much money on a flight school then I want it to be without a doubt worth it. And from what I have heard, Flight Safety gives me no doubts.
 
"The airlines know it and you should too. Think about it...ILS"

What airlines are you talking about? I'll agree that some of the regionals will take notice but by the time you get ready to step up, no one will care whether you went to Joe Bob's flight school or FSA. By then, you will have proven yourself in so many different ways that it just doesn't matter...and you'll still be paying off your loans...

Not trying to start a fight but you have to realize there are many different acceptable paths to follow in the quest for an aviation career. I never set foot in a part 141 school and yet made it to UPS...same for several of my pilot buddies at the majors and the regionals.

"I predict that only three Schools will be left standing, Flight Safety, Embry Riddle, and UND."

Part 61 flight training, grass roots airports, taildraggers, the EAA, and mom and pop FBO's were will always be the backbone of flight training in this country. You don't know it yet but there's plenty of stuff you didn't learn at FSA...
 
Not trying to start a fight but you have to realize there are many different acceptable paths to follow in the quest for an aviation career.
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Ditto what Don said.

(And I'm a Riddle grad!)
 
I'll agree that some of the regionals will take notice but by the time you get ready to step up, no one will care whether you went to Joe Bob's flight school or FSA.
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Yes but isn't that the point? From what I can gather the hardest step is getting hired by a regional, after that it's just a matter of time before a major picks you up. Is that right? And if so I would think increasing your chances for getting hired by a regional is quite important for your career. Plus I'd like to recive good training for me, not just because it looks good on a resume, I want to be best pilot I can be not just good enough to get hired by someone.
 
I think you have it backwards. Getting hired at a major is the hard part. Getting hired at a regional is a matter of having 1500 to 2000 total and 200 to 500 multi. Back in the day....I had 2000 total and about 50 multi. Couldn't get a regional to look at me. I got a job flying 135 freight in Aero Commander 500's (a twin) and soon had the 500 multi. Next thing you know I'm turning regionals down for interviews. Wound up flying turboprop Convairs at a 121 freight company.

The hard part is getting the multi time....

Then there are those bridge programs that put a 300 hour guy in the right seat of an RJ. Flight Safety or not, I think that's wrong...
 
DE727UPS,
That is great that you made it to UPS. That is a dream job for a lot of us. I too have completed a couple of ratings Part 61. I completed the 141 CIME program at FSA. Then I did my commercial SE Part 61 at a small FBO in Oregon. From there I relocated to Phoenix and completed my CFI Part 61 at Westwind. After realizing that I was not getting near the quality training I was paying for and that my instructors at these two schools did not know half what the FSA instructors knew, I headed back to FSA for my II/MEI. So you see I have been on both sides of the fence and I will tell you that 99% of the small FBO/Westwind Part 61 schools do not cover the material to be learned even half as thoroughly as the 141 schools I speak of. Yes, you can get good training at a 61 school if you are lucky and get that one out of every 100 instructors who may have completed all of his training 61 but made damn sure he/she knew everything.

I am currently instructing at a 61 school. When I started here I was amazed at how little these instructors at this school knew. One instructor recently had 5 pre-privates fail in a row. Another had 3 of his 5 pre-private students almost at 40 hours without having soloed. Two of the students switched to another instructor whose pass rate is just as bad. Another instructor was chewed out by the tower last week for going the wrong way in the traffic pattern. He had a new pre-private with him. The pass rate here is well below 30% with the local Scottsdale FSDO. The owner of the school knew I came out of FSA and asked me what he should do about the pass rate and how to create more revenue for the school. I suggested bringing in a 141 style syllabus, SOP, and improving the checklist for all of the aircraft. He said lets do it. The instructors threw a fit when they realized they made be held to higher standards. There was so much negativity from the instructors about the whole thing that we never made it passed the SOP. It’s too bad because the pass rate hasn’t improved and students continue to walk out the front door. You know it’s funny that the instructors at this school who are against change the most have the worst pass rate. One of them with 1800 hours just washed out of Skywests interview. He didn’t even make it passed the written test. He had a problem computing weight and balance. I was at 400 hours when I came to this 61 school with most of my training from FSA and I would not have traded resumes with any instructor here with 1200+ hours. Needless to say I have recently submitted resumes to move on to a 141 school.

Yes, there are other avenues to follow to obtain a career in aviation but I guarantee you it does make a difference when the pilot recruiter sees Riddle, Safety, and UND on your resume. That ensures them that you were at least trained well in the beginning through the use of a syllabus and were taught good piloting habits. Whether or not you kept up the skills will show in the sim ride. Bottom line is this…people from 61 schools can talk crap about 141 schools like FSA, Riddle, and UND all they want but anyone who has been on both sides knows that 99% of the students who have gone through a 141 program have been trained more thoroughly.

The sad thing is that alot of these guys who were trained half ass are going to slip through the cracks and get hired with the airlines. These are the guy’s who will be flying you and your family around on your next vacation. So I ask you this, who do you want up there in the cockpit, the 141 FSA, Riddle, or UND grad or the guy from mom and pops 61 program who may not have had everything covered with them?

Doug, Doug, Doug,
You crack me up. You gave me grief about Flight Safety’s ASA program V.S. the “instructor route” awhile back and now you back people that say Part 61 is just as good as 141. Yes you are careful how you word things but it is obvious what you are saying. Why did you choose ERAU? It wasn’t the price. You could of just as easily went to a local FBO 61 school and saved money. Do you feel you would have received the same quality training at a 61 FBO school that you received at ERAU? I believe you went there because of their reputation for quality training and you knew their name would be beneficial on your resume. Am I right or wrong?

Sorry for writing a novel…ILS
 
Not trying to start a fight but you have to realize there are many different acceptable paths to follow in the quest for an aviation career. I never set foot in a part 141 school and yet made it to UPS...same for several of my pilot buddies at the majors and the regionals.
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Kinda funny, I have friends who fly for Southwest, Fed-EX, United, and even one friend who flies 74's out of Boeing Field for UPS. Every one of them when asked said to complete my training at FSA or Riddle 141. Some of them came out of the military and some went the civilian route. All of them said 141 when I started my training a few years back. ILS
 
You are dead on about needing good instructors. No doubt. I started my private with one who taught me quite a bit, but at times, I felt like I should have been teaching him. He was constantly on the radio being dumb. More often than not, I felt like I was getting hosed for more money. He eventually left..........and I was fortunate to get a good instructor whom makes sure he goes out of his way to teach me all that he can, (I am responsible for the rest). Not the bare minimum. I know that this garbage goes on, but this profession is like any other, you get both good and bad. It is up to the student to make sure they are getting the most bang for the buck no matter where you go.

Granted ERAU, UND and the others are very good schools that are well observed (141), run, etc.... But I cannot tell you the amount of people (141 grads, Air Force Pilots, ANG pilots, Airline Pilots, bush pilots) that tell me to go the 61 FBO route. Why would they say that (besides the cost issue)? Because that has been their experience. The people you have talked to or the experiences that you have had, may give you a different impression.

I can honestly say that no school is without it's pluses and minuses for each student. It's just that some are able to manage it better than others.

For those of us making changes to our lives (read over 30 somethings with families, mortgages, bills, children etc....) going back to a university for a four year degree (again) and dropping well over 100,000.00 just is not going to happen. Not that I don't wish that I went that route 14 years ago. But I didn't. In looking at all the schools out there (and believe me I did about a years worth of research) I found the FBO's to be a good route for ME. Not for everyone. But like anything, you have to watch your a$$. You are going to have to be the one to take the bull by the horns and study. You are also going to have to be the one to look out for yourself and your education. If you take that for granted, you will get jammed no matter where you go. Learn everything and be a student of aviation.

For a student to sit there and think that they will learn about flying by just going to their flight lessons is not bright. I know that I am preaching to the choir on this. I am sure that you have students that just drive you nuts because they refuse to study. But is that all your fault. It sounds as though you are a very driven instructor whom cares about his/her students learning. That is awesome and I wish there were more of you out there. But the reality is that people tend to be lazy. Everywhere.... In all professions and in all education. They want to be force fed, instead of enjoying the meal.

Which brings me to my next point. When you get students spending a large amount of money (141 school). They are more apt to be motivated to learn (college environment). So your student pool may be a bit better (socio-economics). However, at the local FBO you will still find the same tallent (both instructors and students), they will just be in more control of the outcome. They can either pass or fail. It is truly up to them.

I have been going to a local FBO. I have learned a ton. In one year, I earned my private (passed first time through), my instrument (first time through again), and am currently working on my commercial. I have had a "mostly" great experience (though there have been some hurdles). However, I am also working 40 plus hours a week as a Police Sergeant, helping my wife start her business, and not living off of relatives. In otherwords making flying work while being an adult with adult issues. And getting everything out of it.

Folks, one thing that I have learned is that real life experience means more than anything. Sure Harvard may get you in the door, but Hard Knocks (being facesious here) will give you knowledge and reputation.

We as pilots take our flying very seriously, no matter where or how we learned. All of us know that things can always be better. It is up to US to make things better for US and than hopefully pass it on to someone else. Don't ever fully trust any situation and always watch your six......
 
The problem I have found with most 61 schools is that they take the approach “Part 61 only has to be to proficiency”. Too many of these schools sell that to the students as a money saver but do not provide a halfway descent syllabus to ensure they have completed everything to PTS to get them proficient. The end result is the student is not as proficient as a pilot coming out of a “structured” program and they end up spending the same if not more than the 141 program. I am sure there are some 61 schools out there that use a good syllabus that follows the PTS and FAR’s, but it is rare. Another problem I have seen in 61 programs is the lack of supervision over their instructors. This is not a problem for the instructor who takes pride in his/her training. The problem is when the student is not getting the quality training he/she is paying for because the instructor is simply “building time” and does not give a damn. You will run into those kinds of instructor’s alot at 61 schools because they know they can get away with it there. Typically those instructors will not apply to 141 schools because they know they will be held to higher standards and surprise checkrides to check their proficiency. There is an instructor at the school I am at who is always talking crap about 141 schools like FSA, and Riddle. His pass rate is under 40%. Then again, he is also the one who went the wrong way in the traffic pattern last week. What I like about schools such as FSA, Riddle, and UND is that you have to study your ass off, interview, do a sim ride, and usually go through standardization to obtain a CFI position. This kind of preparation ensures the instructor will be ready to teach the student and the student is now getting what they are paying for. This also helps eliminate the door knob CFI who wants to tune in the ball game on the ADF when he is supposed to be instructing the student. That is a true story by the way. I actually had a CFI do that.

Don’t get me wrong there are some good instructors out there at 61 operations but 61 programs are rarely as thorough as 141 programs. The FAA has been saying for years that they would like all schools to operate on a 141 program. They know 141 programs produce safer, more proficient pilots. The pass rate has been proven and I like the idea of knowing that the guy entering the pattern next to me was taught everything that was on the syllabus not what the instructor thought they should know off the top of their head.

ILS
 
Hey ILS where you instructing nower days? back in pheonix? Are you on the waiting list to instruct at FSA? and /or ASA right seat program? and what about flying the King Airs?
 
I definately agree with your statements there. I have a feeling that I also know the instructor that you are refering to. Though I have been fortunate so far in my education, sometimes I do wish that the schools took more pride in their instruction instead of worrying about the bottom line.

I once talked to a 16 driver about flight training and I was telling him about my dreams of changing over careers. He asked me a very good question, " Do you ever wonder why it is that an Air Force, Navy, or Marine pilot goes from zero hours to a supersonic jet in about 140 hours, when a student pilot going the civilian route will still be working on their instrument in a 172? We are like the major leagues in a way. We only get the top one percent who want to be here. The drive, the intelligence, the attitude, the education are all top notch. Pluse where as you may be spending 30,000.00 on your education. We are spending 2 million on theirs."

He was right on all accounts. He actually is a big supporter of mine and I have routinely called him for advice. But the point of the whole matter was that the training was spot on. Talk about standardized and overseen lesson plans. They also have the luxury of dropping those that are not measuring up. They get the best, they have the best instructors (because they need to be), and they have fantastic equipment (we will just ignore the two 16's down in Az, though both pilots are safe and sound).

He went on to tell me that he thought there was a great civilian pilot pool, but unfortunately cost and location usually are the determining factors in the quality of initial training. After that, they either have the right stuff or do not. A pilot getting picked up by the majors usually will have their ducks in a row by then. Otherwise, they will not get picked up. I think through time the weeding out occurs and the cream does ride to the top. I know that may sound cocky, but oh well.

I have read numerous posts on this and other forums with people complaining about everything under the sun. Hell, I may have even been torqued about a thing or two. But it all comes down to the fact that that is life. We don't always get things perfect and sometimes we are the receiver of the short end of the stick. Life is not fair.......so we all just need to get over it and make the most with what are choices were and deal with the hand we were delt.

No matter which path people take to become a pilot (and like anything, only those with the most drive, determination, resources and connections will succeed), we are the ones responsible for making it happen. Not some school. Sure they can help, but it is all up to you. And believe me, if you are not happy with a school or instructor, change...... And if you have some moron trying to show off as an instructor by listening to a ball game during your flight training, dump them fast and let the school know why.... They will be gone.

By the way, was that instructor from a former west side flight school in the valley by any chance???????
 
It sounds like you are doing alright in your present situation at the 61 school. That is good to hear. I know how it is when you have a family and bills to pay when you start flight training. It is not easy to pack up and move the family to a specific school like you said. I had a 3 month old little girl when I packed up our things here in AZ and headed for FSA in Florida. Hell, I made the trip twice in a year and a half. I am the person who will make damn sure I am getting what I pay for. That is why the decision to go to FSA was so easy. After doing my homework, touring FSA, Riddle, UND and talking with six friends who were currently flying for the majors I chose Flight Safety. Simply put, I knew I would get the best quality training money can buy. Yea, it cost a little more than a 61 school but I finished up early and under budget which ended up being cheaper than Riddle, UND, Westwind, And Pan-AM. How do I know? Because I have friends at everyone of those schools and I know what they paid. You are right about there being other avenues to a career in the airlines but, know one will ever convince me that 61 schools are as good as 141. Like I said, UNLESS you are lucky and find a 61 school that uses a very structured syllabus and you get a good instructor who has a high attention to detail there is usually something left out of your training that will come out in the checkride.

About those F-16's. My brother flew them for 4 years before he was injured off the job and lost his wings. I told him not to buy that damn crotch rocket. He thought he was Tom Cruise. He doesn't even fly anymore. He could have continued civilian but didn't. Sometimes I wish I would have gone that route and let the Government pay for my ratings. Those 16's are just a little faster than my Piper Seminole. It would be fun...

Snow, I am still next on the list for the ASA interview. They say maybe next January or so. My wife and I recently opened our own business here in AZ. It is a coffee franchise out of Seattle. We are working on our 4th location right now out of 20. The goal is to get the business situated so my wife can run it and I can fly. We are on track to make 3 times what I would ever make with the majors but I love to fly so I will continue to press on. A pilot friend of mine who flies for Alaska Airlines just opened his 3rd franchise in the Seattle area. He say's he wants financial security outside of the airlines. Smart guy...

Everyone fly safe...ILS
 
Hey thanks for dialog on this. I appreciate it. There are only two 141 type programs that I have heard nothing but good on and they are ATP and FSA. In a different time and world maybe that would have worked for me. Oh well. Funny about the Coffee biz thing. My wife and her mother are opening a coffee/Cyber Cafe/art/decorative furniture shop in Wenden Az. It is about 30 min southwest of Wickenburg, between Aguilla and Salome. They hope to have the shop opened by October. So I have been helping them set up shop as well. I don't know where I have learned more, from my flying or watching them start the business from the ground up.....

Still a bit to go on that. They want to do the rural Az thing....Cheaper but more challenging (building was built in 1921). Hopefully they will have success also. Then maybe I can have that new 182T that I have been dreaming about....Take care.
 
There are only two 141 type programs that I have heard nothing but good on and they are ATP and FSA.
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Hey, I went to ATPs, good school, but definitely a part 61 type program.
 
It’s weird I would partially side with CLR4, but we’re both pilots so what the hell. And I must say my opinion is biased in the matter of preferring 141. But whether its 141 or 61, a quality flight instructor is invaluable. The 61/141 debate is endless and I’m sure the same quality pilot can come out of either program with a knowledgeable instructor and a highly motivated student. But as 141 is what I’m most familiar with, I know it demands quite a lot out of the flight instructors it produces.

However, even with a comprehensive 141 syllabus, a flight instructor’s responsibility should go beyond the syllabus and PTS in teaching how to relate, correlate and associate all the maneuvers and simulated emergencies into “real world” situations.

As I side note, I must disagree with CLR4's assessment of the only schools with quality training. Although he might want to take that up with the FAA and their certifying criteria which is the same for all of the other 141 schools.
 
E7B - Wouldn't you say that training comes down to the school and the instructors. Especially since you sell part 61 training?
 
Dear CLR...

You seemed to have had bad experiences with 61 training...so sorry for that. I can say quite the opposite. I like 61 training for it's flexibility. If the part 61 CFI's that you've been around aren't teaching to the PTS standards, then....they suck. They should have their act together better than that...

Are you saying 141 prohibits weak CFI's?

Personally, I like the flexibility of 61 carried to a 141 standard. I use a 141 syllabus with the Cessna Pilot Center CD-ROM ground school and a Cessna 152 aerobat with an IFR approach approved Garmin 430 GPS.

"but I guarantee you it does make a difference when the pilot recruiter sees Riddle, Safety, and UND on your resume"

You guaratee ME huh...tell that to my friend from UND who is working as a bank teller. I'll tell you that the pilot recruiter for a major airline couldn't care less where you went to school or what your degree is in. They are looking for ratings and hours and quality of experience....period. Hope you get on at ASA...let me know in about five years and maybe if UPS is hiring I could give you a recommendation.......

"Doug, Doug, Doug,
You crack me up. You gave me grief about Flight Safety’s ASA program V.S. the “instructor route” awhile back and now you back people that say Part 61 is just as good as 141. Yes you are careful how you word things but it is obvious what you are saying. Why did you choose ERAU? It wasn’t the price. You could of just as easily went to a local FBO 61 school and saved money. Do you feel you would have received the same quality training at a 61 FBO school that you received at ERAU? I believe you went there because of their reputation for quality training and you knew their name would be beneficial on your resume. Am I right or wrong?"

First of all, you might want to treat the owner of this site, a DAL pilot, with a bit more respect...

I went to ERAU cause the local, 141, 4 year program at Central Washington Universtiy in Ellensburg, Washington which uses Midstate Aviation as thier sole source of "approved" training, was having financial problems and might not make it. ERAU was the only option I considered cause I was too stupid to consider a non-aviation degree...

I'll say it again...case you didn't hear me....it's best to get a non-aviation degree so you have something else besides aviation to fall back on and pursue as an additional interest to aviation.

"Kinda funny, I have friends who fly for Southwest, Fed-EX, United, and even one friend who flies 74's out of Boeing Field for UPS. Every one of them when asked said to complete my training at FSA or Riddle 141. Some of them came out of the military and some went the civilian route. All of them said 141 when I started my training a few years back."

Kewl...all my friends went 61 and have done just fine...and UPS doesn't fly 747's out of BFI...
 
[ QUOTE ]

Doug, Doug, Doug,
You crack me up. You gave me grief about Flight Safety’s ASA program V.S. the “instructor route” awhile back and now you back people that say Part 61 is just as good as 141. Yes you are careful how you word things but it is obvious what you are saying. Why did you choose ERAU? It wasn’t the price. You could of just as easily went to a local FBO 61 school and saved money. Do you feel you would have received the same quality training at a 61 FBO school that you received at ERAU? I believe you went there because of their reputation for quality training and you knew their name would be beneficial on your resume. Am I right or wrong?


[/ QUOTE ]

Part-61 is as good as part-141 but they're almost two different products. I worked for a part-141 school, but chose to teach my students under FAR part-61 because I had a lot more liberty as an instructor to teach the way I had learned and freedom to experiment with syllabuses (syllabi?
smile.gif
) Part-141 is good, but different. It really depends on the situation.

I like mustard on hotdogs, but it's a little disgusting on chicken.


Why did I choose ERAU? At the time I thought it was the only way that I could become a pilot. Remember, I'm from a small town south of Fresno so most of the information I impart is from trial and error.

I really had no idea as a 16 year-old kid from the San Joaquin Valley of California from a town with a population of 25,000 that there was any other way!

Want to do something for a living? Major in it, right?
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Which colleges offer majors in becoming an airline pilot? Umm, ERAU...UND... FIT...

The concept of studying one subject, but flying on the side was an unknown concept to me at the time. Remember, there was no internet, aviation forums or anything beyond special ordering an outdated book from the local mall B.Dalton Bookseller.

ERAU was a fantastic school, but very expensive and only one of many choices available when trying to get your career started off.

I'm happy with my education at ERAU, but I think I'd be doing a disservice if I constantly championed and cheered for the university. Personally, I believe tuition has gotten way out of hand.

About the ASA Program versus the Instructor Route: I still stand by my beliefs that you're going to be a better rounded pilot if you plot a career route through well-traveled paths. If a potential student has his heart set on taking his last part-141 checkride and then hopping into an RJ seat at 300 hours in today's job market is being largely mislead. In fact, there's some beachfront property I'd love to sell him in Tucson.

I was there, believe me. I got out of ERAU with a BS in Aeronautical Science and thought my credentials alone would put me on the "A-List" for jobs in a rough economy. It took a year of starving, a lot of soul-searching, reflecting quietly on park benches and a few hundred bounced resumes that gave me the epiphany that there are no short cuts and I went and completed training for a CFI/I and started looking for work.

Did the ERAU name help me? I don't know. Skyway highly valued UND grads because most of their checkairmen were UND alumni. Delta probably didn't care because of their high preference for former military pilots.

It probably did open some doors, but I think drive and ambition was more important. I know a lot of my former alumni that are working as bartenders, at Wal Mart and went back to school for other degree fields -- and we had the same education and probably the same opportunities.

Could a specific name open doors for you? Sure, but if a person competing for the same job has equal qualifications as you, interviews a little better and has the 'can do' spirit rather than "Hey, I went to the 'Harvard of the Skies'" mentality, I think we know who is going to get the job.
 
Sorry about that. I must have had my info mixed up. I thought ATP was 141. My bad.

Reality.........Kind of scarry huh????
 
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