Student fails checkride, WWYD?

M

mshunter

Well-Known Member
So a I get back from a x-country with my student, expecting full well that another CFI's student will have passed his checkride. So I ask "You a pilot yet?"

"NO! I BUSTED ON MY SHORT FIELD FOR A GO AROUND!"

:eek:WHAT!?!?!

Here's the scenario, and it says it on the pink slip.

He was on final, about 1/4 to 1/2 mile from the runway. Full flaps are then selected at 60kts. Student doesn't like the approach, "I'm going to go around" he says. Pushed the throttle in, and the examiner takes the controls (I thought the student was PIC?:confused:) and lands. Examiner says to the the instructor "He was at 60kts about 1/4 to 1/3 mile from the runway with full flaps." :confused::confused:. The 150 POH says 52kts for short field aproaches, and the PTS says +10/-5 kts. So he's 8kts over?:confused: Hows that a bust?

I looked at his pink slip, and sure enough, the instructor and student weren't BS'ing me.

#1: Would you report this to the FSDO?

#2: Should this examiner be "banned" from our flight school?


The instructor already made arangements with another DPE to finish up the ride, so he won't be asked back for the student erring on the side of a go-around. But I'd like to see some honest opnions. What do you think?


P.S. This examiner has a reputation for being very easy on female aplicants, and very tought on males. He also has a reputation for not liking stalls or slow flight........
 
I'd let the student's instructor deal with the student's issues.

However, if I were the student's instructor, I'd make sure I had my facts straight by talking with the examiner.

If I felt I was on solid ground, I would request the FSDO reexamine the applicant. That is an option open to anyone who receives a notice of disapproval, and I have yet to see it exercised. If nothing else, it will make the FSDO get their books out when the request comes in.

Then, after the reexamination, if the inspector determines that the applicant's performance meets the standards, I would talk with the inspector about the issues with the examiner and depending on the course of the conversation ask for a meeting with the GA operations supervisor for the FSDO.
 
Sounds a bit crazy. If I were his instructor I would have pulled the PTS and asked the DPE a few questions. As far as dealing with the DPE, either don't use him anymore or have a chief flight instructor (or owner of school) talk to him. If he doesn't react positively file a complaint with the FSDO.
 
Did you talk to the examiner? In my 40 something signoffs I have done I think I have four or five failures. Every one of them you get a different story from the applicant than I got from the examiner. The students tend to leave parts of the story out...
 
mshunter said:
#1: Would you report this to the FSDO?
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Have you talked to the examiner? I'd be interested in his justification.

When I was about to go for my Commercial SE, I heard that a student had failed with the examiner for not applying full power during a Chandelle. I called up the examiner and confronted him with the Airplane Flying Handbook, which said full power wasn't required if the aircraft had a constant speed prop. He was at first irate, but after pulling out his own books, he finally admitted I was right. But then he proceeded to say the student had screwed some other stuff up. I ended up taking my checkride with this guy and passed, so he clearly wasn't too resentful about my challenging him.

The point is, I don't think it unreasonable for you to call the examiner and discuss it and, depending on how the conversation goes, mention that you might discuss it with FSDO. Not in a threatening way, but just because you're concerned about proper training standards and fairness in examination. And you're certainly interested in making sure the examiner isn't sending the message that go-arounds are not allowed.

I don't think that instructors should be as passive as they tend to be with examiners. If we don't watch them, their egos will inflate beyond all reason. In my view, this is an issue that your chief flight instructor should handle, if he has the spine for it. If not, carry on.
 
wjmiller3 said:
The students tend to leave parts of the story out...
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lol yes they do. Had one of my students fail a instrument ride because of doing zig zags down the NDB approach. DPE said he was at least 60 degrees off his heading when he crossed the outer marker. The story the student made up sounded as if that was the wind correction he had on the approach. :eek:

This student tends to get nervous on checkrides. He nailed every NDB approach we did together. He failed every checkride once and always argued with the examiner in the aircraft.
 
The examiner's story, while entertaining, is going to be pretty irrelevant. The only thing that really matters is what was written on the pink slip, since that's "officially" what the faliure was attributed to.

1) Yep...probably.

2) Yep...probably.

-mini
 
mshunter said:
...

He was on final, about 1/4 to 1/2 mile from the runway. Full flaps are then selected at 60kts. Student doesn't like the approach, "I'm going to go around" he says. Pushed the throttle in, and the examiner takes the controls (I thought the student was PIC?:confused:) and lands. Examiner says to the the instructor "He was at 60kts about 1/4 to 1/3 mile from the runway with full flaps." :confused::confused:. The 150 POH says 52kts for short field aproaches, and the PTS says +10/-5 kts. So he's 8kts over?:confused: Hows that a bust?
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I'm not sure I'm following the scenario. Are you saying that he busted for being 8 knots over? Or are you saying that he got busted for trying to do a go-around when he was within PTS standards and should have continued the landing?
 
SteveC said:
I'm not sure I'm following the scenario. Are you saying that he busted for being 8 knots over? Or are you saying that he got busted for trying to do a go-around when he was within PTS standards and should have continued the landing?
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Well, neither, I think. Like I said, it wasn't my student. But he(student) didn't like the way things were looking, so he decided to do a go-around. The examiner took the airplane, and landed. After talking to both the instructor and the student, and another instructor who has about 30 years of instruction/chief pilot/chief flight instructor under his belt (although not at this school), who was there during the de-brief, and was furious with the examiner, I tend to belive the three of them, based on his reputation(examiner). Sorry for the run on sentence. Beside's, being 8kts over, and deciding to do a go-around(weather the approach looks right or not) is not grounds for a pink slip.
 
tgrayson said:
The point is, I don't think it unreasonable for you to call the examiner and discuss it and, depending on how the conversation goes, mention that you might discuss it with FSDO. Not in a threatening way, but just because you're concerned about proper training standards and fairness in examination. And you're certainly interested in making sure the examiner isn't sending the message that go-arounds are not allowed.

I don't think that instructors should be as passive as they tend to be with examiners. If we don't watch them, their egos will inflate beyond all reason. In my view, this is an issue that your chief flight instructor should handle, if he has the spine for it. If not, carry on.
Click to expand...


It's not my issue to handle. Not my student. And the instructor questioned the examiner after the flight was over, and the examiner didn't seem to know what the approach speed was for a 150 short field. I urged the instructor to let the FSDO know, let the DPE know that he will not be asked back to the flight school to examine, and the student is going to finish his ride with another examiner (which, BTW, has been scheduled for Sun.). I have been the "sit in" when his primary instructor is away, and he flies well above most other aplicants, and WELL above PTS standards. I think the examiner was getting impatient, and wanted to be done personally.
 
Since I'm in the area I'd like to know who the DPE was. I'm pretty sure I already know but it is nice to be sure. If you don't want to post here can you PM it to me? Thanks!
 
I would dig up some more facts, if it was my student.
Does the airspeed indicator indicate MPH and knots?
 
Douglas said:
I would dig up some more facts, if it was my student.
Does the airspeed indicator indicate MPH and knots?
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ALL of our airplanes are standardized. They are ALL 1977 150's (atleast the ones he was doing his training in). They ALL have the EXACT same equipment in them. And it reads in knots. I work with owners who give a crap about their airplanes (they own 15-16 IIRC), and they are very well kept.
 
It is cool to ride around in nice airplanes for sure, but the question was more geared towards if the airspeed indicator indicated MPH and Knots, not or. The reason being, the DPE could be looking at the knots and your student looking at the MPH arc, which could have the effect you described.
 
Over the years I have never met anyone who was at fault in an automobile accident. Even my neighbor who ran into my parked car on a quiet suburban street was not at fault because his foot got caught in the floor mat of the truck. So, according to him, it was the floor mat’s fault.

I’ve also never met a divorced person who was at fault in a divorce.

Check ride failures are a lot like automobile accidents and divorces in that they are always someone else’s fault.
 
PeterPilot said:
Over the years I have never met anyone who was at fault in an automobile accident. Even my neighbor who ran into my parked car on a quiet suburban street was not at fault because his foot got caught in the floor mat of the truck. So, according to him, it was the floor mat’s fault.

I’ve also never met a divorced person who was at fault in a divorce.

Check ride failures are a lot like automobile accidents and divorces in that they are always someone else’s fault.
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You apparently know some people who do not know how to do a proper self assessment. I failed a checkride. I did it too. No excuses. There are some reasons, contributing factors, but in the end, it was my fault. I learned from it, and I did not repeat the same mistakes.

I have plenty of other times in my life where I looked at it, said "yep, I screwed up. What can I learn from it?"
 
msmspilot said:
You apparently know some people who do not know how to do a proper self assessment.
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Not just "some". A lot.

The point being that it is best not to go charging off on a crusade based solely on one side of the story without further investigation.
 
PeterPilot said:
Not just "some". A lot.

The point being that it is best not to go charging off on a crusade based solely on one side of the story without further investigation.
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True, but if the examiner said they were at 60kts and short field approach is 52kts, I'd definitely have some questions.
 
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