STOP THE NOISE!

[Cessna414JJB]

Pissing them off and making them more determined is a step in the right direction? Come on.

+1

Trying to piss them off is definitely the wrong answer, as (if you further research is site) he posts the ill written and immature emails as a way to show pilots as babies and strengthen his case. The only way to fight them is to keep the public informed (not through his website) and to keep your elected leaders informed. Harassment either in the air or through the web is probably the equivalent of breaking your own arm and leg before trying to fight.

Exactly. If pilots take any action, that action should be to inform all the pilot organizations about websites like these, point out that such appearances need to be monitored by AOPA/ EAA and all the other puddle jumper groups which sell you expensive magazine subscriptions and claim to be working for your continued privilege to fly in this country.

I'd not mistake the power and reach of such citizen groups. Goals are pursued with tremendous passion and backed up by near unlimited financial rigor. You can complain and moan about boats, bikes and bad exhausts on cars, too, yet your average mob IDENTIFIES with all of it. The one thing they don't understand and associate with is airplanes and the people who fly them.

If you do any infiltration, I'd recommend to infiltrate SILENTLY, get on the mailing lists and share/ spread their lingo with every pilot you know, including all the associations.

 

[MikeD]

Exactly. If pilots take any action, that action should be to inform all the pilot organizations about websites like these, point out that such appearances need to be monitored by AOPA/ EAA and all the other puddle jumper groups which sell you expensive magazine subscriptions and claim to be working for your continued privilege to fly in this country.

I'd not mistake the power and reach of such citizen groups. Goals are pursued with tremendous passion and backed up by near unlimited financial rigor. You can complain and moan about boats, bikes and bad exhausts on cars, too, yet your average mob IDENTIFIES with all of it. The one thing they don't understand and associate with is airplanes and the people who fly them.

More often that not, the agenda of many of these anti groups is already set in stone, no matter what or how you explain the situation to them, you are nothing more than a "rich kid with a plane" if it isn't an airliner they are used to seeing.

In the case of KSDL, no amount of facts, such as how much revenue the airport....as well as the surrounding airpark business park....brings in to the city, is of any use in swaying these people who only see the noise aspect of it and/or the safety aspect. In the specific case of KSDL, Im waiting for the renewed outcry that's sure to come from the very recent SR22 crash 1 mile from the field into a neighborhood that luckily didn't hit any homes. Still, the unintended consequences of accidents like these is only fodder for the anti-airport people who have a set agenda.

It matters not if the airport was there first, the money and power will prevail. And thats pretty unfortunate.

 

[LeonPhelps]

Inform AOPA/ EAA... that's brilliant! Grenade launcher is a sweet idea too.

 

[Cessna414JJB]

More often that not, the agenda of many of these anti groups is already set in stone, no matter what or how you explain the situation to them, you are nothing more than a "rich kid with a plane" if it isn't an airliner they are used to seeing.

In the case of KSDL, no amount of facts, such as how much revenue the airport....as well as the surrounding airpark business park....brings in to the city, is of any use in swaying these people who only see the noise aspect of it and/or the safety aspect. In the specific case of KSDL, Im waiting for the renewed outcry that's sure to come from the very recent SR22 crash 1 mile from the field into a neighborhood that luckily didn't hit any homes. Still, the unintended consequences of accidents like these is only fodder for the anti-airport people who have a set agenda.

It matters not if the airport was there first, the money and power will prevail. And thats pretty unfortunate.

Exactly what I meant to say. All the Rawr Rawr and Blah Blah does NOTHING. Engaging them directly is the equivalent of pinching a bull in the horn. It actually feeds their cause, as everything you submit to them is subject to publication. If I got hate mail, I'd not hesitate to expose whomever sent it my way to the public.
I doubt AOPA/ EAA or any of the other specialty old boys clubs are any more effective with anything that goes beyond squeezing more money from the flying populace, but if anyone has a chance to engage them, it's probably these groups.

 

[Matt13C]

Personally, I think loud pipes on airplanes belong to people who are basically adult babies who desperately crave constant public attention in the same way, and for the same reason, as squealing 14 year old girls in the mall food court. I see no reason why we shouldn't be cashing in on these imbeciles personality disorders. Who knows, maybe it will help them grow up a little!

So how is your argument against motorcycles any different than the one against pilot?

CapnJim- "Don't tell me I can't fly my plane because it is too loud for you, you moved near an airport".

VROOOOOOOm

CapnJim - "Damn motorcycles, someone ought to make it illegal for them to be so loud!"

 

[CapnJim]

So how is your argument against motorcycles any different than the one against pilot?

So how is your argument against motorcycles any different than the one against pilot?

CapnJim- "Don't tell me I can't fly my plane because it is too loud for you, you moved near an airport".

VROOOOOOOm

CapnJim - "Damn motorcycles, someone ought to make it illegal for them to be so loud!"

#1: Aircraft have to be that loud. If mufflers on planes were safe and affordable, they'd be on there, wouldn't they?
#2. Motorcycles are intentionally made loud because of the selfish childish stupidity of the owner.
#3. The day I move next to a Harley Park and complain about noise, your counterargument makes sense. As is, it makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[Roger Roger]

#1: Aircraft have to be that loud. If mufflers on planes were safe and affordable, they'd be on there, wouldn't they?

Well, in point of fact, most aircraft do have mufflers. The baffling inside one common high-performance aircraft's muffler only lasts about 200 hours before it disintegrates and blows out the tailpipe though.

 

[rframe]

We've had complaints from guys who've built houses under the approach end of our bigger runway with ILS service or under the pattern area. When the airport gets complaints he'll call people, go out and meet with them, chat in in a non-aggressive way and show them diagrams of the airport and housing developments, offer to take people for a ride in an airplane and get a tour of the airport.... it destroys aggression in a big way.

 

[Cessna414JJB]

#1: Mufflers (external) are available, safe and affordable and no, they won't blow up or out the tailpipe...
#2: Motorcycles are loud because their noise is socially accepted/ fully integrated.
#3: Nonetheless, money and citizenry win, 98% of the cases.

 

[CapnJim]

Well, in point of fact, most aircraft do have mufflers. The baffling inside one common high-performance aircraft's muffler only lasts about 200 hours before it disintegrates and blows out the tailpipe though.

Fair enough, but the point stands: Reducing light aircraft exhaust sound to automobile levels represents an unsafe loss of power and reliability. Not so motorcycles-- those manbabies just like behaving like little boys banging pots and pans, or pubescent girls squealing in public just so people will look at them. It's a pitiful display, but that doesn't make it any less annoying.

 

[CapnJim]

#1: Mufflers (external) are available, safe and affordable and no, they won't blow up or out the tailpipe...

If that were true, there wouldn't be any problem with noise, would there?

#2: Motorcycles are loud because their noise is socially accepted/ fully integrated.

No, they're loud because it's still legal for some reason. Only the noisy biker's buddies still like the sound; even the motorcycle community itself is starting to see the negative impact on public opinion of bikers, and the idiotic "loud pipes saves lives" nonsense is finally being rejected.

#3: Nonetheless, money and citizenry win, 98% of the cases.

Indeed, which is why it should be pretty easy to get ordinances passed in enough cities to quiet these mid-life crisismobiles and the fools who think they're a good idea.

 

[Cessna414JJB]

If that were true, there wouldn't be any problem with noise, would there?

Ineffective advocacy efforts, Avgas for a buck a gallon and no generally recognized need for noise reduction as well as a fairly broad arrogance/ ignorance based approach to noise complaints from the citizenry are to blame for problems with noise. It's not the lack of proper equipment/ technology or availability of sufficient expertise in dealing with it, it really cooks down to what pilots do and how they react to things like this.

No, they're loud because it's still legal for some reason. Only the noisy biker's buddies still like the sound; even the motorcycle community itself is starting to see the negative impact on public opinion of bikers, and the idiotic "loud pipes saves lives" nonsense is finally being rejected.

Yet, there is an airplane on that banner, not a motorcycle, correct?
Derailing the issue, or trying to deflect the complaint upon a more widely accepted source of noise is not a solution to the problem at hand.

Indeed, which is why it should be pretty easy to get ordinances passed in enough cities to quiet these mid-life crisismobiles and the fools who think they're a good idea.

They are not working on ordinances against motorcycles. They target and seek to destroy (make unavailable, remove, prohibit) (Y)OUR airplane from flying over their property. Sorry, I know it's not very popular to point the truth out, but we are the target, in this case. Just because we don't like being the target, or think our fecal matter doesn't stink, does not fix the issue. Sites like that can spread, and before you know it, you have little wildfires, everywhere. We are utterly ill prepared to deal with it...

Seen it happen before and the writings are all over the wall.

 

[CapnJim]

Rubbish. AV gas is $1 a gal NOWHERE, and that billboard and the campaign behind it are championed by an undereducated manbaby that makes the loud-pipes set look like the Miss Manners fan club. Your entire argument is invalid.

 

[Cessna414JJB]

Not getting the point and reading comprehension issues fortunately doesn't make others arguments invalid. Yet...

 

[CapnJim]

No, I fully comprehended that you think there's someplace that you can get AV gas for a buck a gallon, and that this mysterious FBO (perhaps constructed of pure awesomeness) is partially to blame for aircraft noise complaints. Nor did I fail to comprehend that you believe that quietening light aircraft is cheap and easy, which neatly explains why so many flight schools and aircraft owners have decided to install them on their aircraft. O wait... they haven't.

I was also completely able to comprehend that you thought this billboard, and the online campaign behind it, were well-done, compelling, and likely to influence anyone besides the people who already agree with it.

It was for these reasons that I called your argument invalid. About the only thing you were right about is that this thread shouldn't be about motorcycles. You're right. That's why I dropped the issue.

 

[MikeD]

One thing on the motorcycle noise issue vs airplane noise issue is public perception. I too find some motorcycles to be obnoxiously loud, but then again I not a motorcycle person.

Perception-wise, motorcycle riders are generally still considered "everyman", in terms of it being more or less an affordable hobby/passion, whatever. So even though there are obnoxiously loud motorcycles, most people ignore it or generally don't go after it too much.

Not so with aviation/airports. GA is generally seen as largely unattainable for the general populace, a "rich kids" toy....homebuilts etc, something not everyone can have. And by and large it is unattainable for the average Joe. So, people are more apt to go after that for any number of reasons, real or imagined. And it doesn't matter if they're even right or not, or have the correct facts or not. To these people, airliners are fine, because they can fly on them. But private planes? Some "rich kid" pilot flying around, making noise overhead, being a safety hazard? Completely unacceptable to them. Accidents like the SR22 at SDL is bad enough for negative publicity that helps their cause. Even worse, accidents like the P-51 at Reno only serve to SEVERELY help their cause simply due to the venue, the races being a rich man's sport (which it pretty much is, but thats beside the point), etc, etc. And so we find ourselves in the quandry we do such as in this thread as well as many other geogrpahic areas where GA is finding itself more and more pushed out of places it has been for a long time..

 

[CapnJim]

Dangit Mike. Now, I'm not just agreeing with you, I'm downright enjoying your posts. Something must be wrong... I'm... I'm about... to like your post there.

Must be leftover Christmas Cheer or something. Don't worry, I'm sure it will wear off soon.

 

[Cessna414JJB]

No, I fully comprehended that you think there's someplace that you can get AV gas for a buck a gallon, and that this mysterious FBO (perhaps constructed of pure awesomeness) is partially to blame for aircraft noise complaints. Nor did I fail to comprehend that you believe that quietening light aircraft is cheap and easy, which neatly explains why so many flight schools and aircraft owners have decided to install them on their aircraft. O wait... they haven't.

Must be something in your system, that prevents you from seeing that Avgas in the U.S. has been considerably cheaper than anywhere else in the world. Never mind that there could have been symbolic meaning to what I said. I didn't say it was cheap to modify airplanes to leave a lesser noise footprint, yet your claim to call these tools unavailable is probably just as invalid as my $1/Gallon Avgas story.

I was also completely able to comprehend that you thought this billboard, and the online campaign behind it, were well-done, compelling, and likely to influence anyone besides the people who already agree with it.

Putting words in my mouth doesn't make your argument more valid. You can continue to attack me for pointing out to you that we can react to this by giving bad reviews to the "artists" drawing of the airplane, or count how many medications the kid in the picture might have had for breakfast, or how drug addicted the people who move close to an airport are... all with the same result.

All I said was that they don't go after motorcyclists, bass boxes or any of the like. They change public perception by the use of a billboard that has a very clear & crisp message. Go ahead, shoot a big hole in the billboard to show what you think of it. Pilots are already perceived as rich, arrogant snobs.

The world is unfair, lacks common sense and in general, aviation loses out to ANY other source of public aggravation, always, period, end of story. By discrediting everything I say as rubbish, you're stroking your ego, but doing not much else. I think we should focus on what we (as pilots and operators) are doing collectively to counter such actions.

 

[LeonPhelps]

The bikes don't really bother me that much either unless it's a neighbor revving the engine at an odd hour for no reason. Both planes and bikes fly by your house at 100mph so the noise doesn't last but a second. Daytona is meant to be noisy... NASCAR, flight schools, bike week, drugged out crackheads screaming on the streets. Growing up in the area, the noise actually brings me comfort because these activities are dumping money into our struggling local economy. I hope these old Dbags are happy when all these activities are forbidden and their grand kids are sent off to a far away land to find a job.

 

[MikeD]

Dangit Mike. Now, I'm not just agreeing with you, I'm downright enjoying your posts. Something must be wrong... I'm... I'm about... to like your post there.

Must be leftover Christmas Cheer or something. Don't worry, I'm sure it will wear off soon.

I just try to write sensible posts. On this one especially because I was involved in fighting this battle long ago at KSDL, and in doing so I got to see the "behind the scenes" of those who are doing the complaining. Many of them are ill-informed, have weak or no facts, don't care to know the facts, and see no value in general aviation since they have no involvement with it.

And don't get me started on bringing up personal responsibility, such as we mentioned here already about moving in next to an airport. You get the range of answers everywhere from:

1. Doesn't matter if it was here first. (and even though they're wrong on this concept, they're unfortunately right on the actual reality of the matter where money and power are concerned).
2. All "little planes" are unsafe (everything but airliners)
3. Why should they have to listen to all that noise?
4. (in the case of military bases) They must've moved in on a Sunday and "not known" an airport was there; or they didn't know the GA airport was there. Forget the fact of planes flying around, etc. Unless they bought the house sight-unseen, they need to take this stupid argument to their realtor. Fact is, they DID know the airport was there, but they just don't like having to face their own stupidity and ignorance.

The above, combined with the aforementioned money and power....and hence, influence that these people have over city council members; and this becomes the uphill battle in the history of uphill battles. Saw it and dealt with it firsthand. Interviewed by the media, presented professional arguments and facts to counter their half and no-truths....and even outright lies. Spent alot of time and energy at city council meetings, airport meetings, especially when one city councilman decreed that military aircraft shouldn't be allowed at KSDL for any reason, due to noise and "no need for them to be there". I countered with KSDL legally being a military Landing Rights Airport, as well as even if he didn't want them there, at worst case any aircraft can land anywhere in an emergency. And btw, if he'd like to forego the federal tax dollars the airport gets, and by extension the City, then he can make it a private field and run it however he likes.

All these arguments, all this time, and I learned that in truth, no one cares. Most of the time I was by myself, in my own corner. Even though I wanted help from fellow pilots, what I DID NOT need was people arguing from an emotional standpoint or one of personal offense; as that would only muddy the water and dilute the professional arguments. So I went at it mostly alone and with a little help here and there. Had one ally on the city council who himself was a pilot and combat veteran, but we were very well outnumbered and outgunned.

Besides us that do this; nobody cares.