Stolen Valor, fake VMF-214 Blacksheep and figher ace

bunk22

bunk22

Well-Known Member
http://www.daily-times.com/ci_17164757?source=most_viewed

This is a pet peeve of mine. In the big scheme of things, probably not a huge deal but it's disrespectful, dishonest and disgusting. It's so easy to pretend to be something you're not as it's much easier to have not sacrificed, bleed, risked it all. This makes you a loser in life to do such a thing.

Over at www.airwarriors.com a few years back, we had a db join by the name of Skeeterman. He had a similar story to this dirt bag in that he was a combat veteran of the Korean War, flew Banshee's and had been awarded the Navy Cross. Many of his stories started to sound a bit fishy and the pics he posted were generic. When questioned, he either ignored it or became annoyed and angry. He was finally outed as a fake and he threatened many of us with lawsuits. He went so far as to claim hiring a lawyer, presenting this lawyers info to scare us on the website. He just dug a deeper hole. He later created a website about his exploits with generic pics and info. He was outed a gain. Last we heard from him, he was on this nutbird website about exploiting the truth in the media. It's really a website with a handful of leftwing progessives who hate anything and everything conservative. He played his fake war hero card to establish himself as a guy who understands and hates war as he had been there done that. Yes, we went after him there too. Of course the nutjobs there were enthralled with him, he is their website hero and it's a bit ironic in that they are "supposedly" all about outing the lie's and deceit of the conservative government.

His name was Fred Barnes and he is listed on www.pownetwork.org and you can read about how he went about his bs. He sent me probably 3 or 4 emails with threats.

http://www.pownetwork.org/phonies/phonies485.htm
 
What a complete ass. Can't believe how deep a hole he has dug and how far his BS reaches. Thanks to those who have, death to those who didn't (but say they did). And thats from a nutbird who served but didn't do anything but push buttons.
 
Thanks for sticking up for us. It really irks those of us who flew with Pappy in VMF-214 to see guys parading around as if they were there.
 
granlistillo said:
LMAO-well played.
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Just to be clear though - Bunk is right and this kind of thing sucks. Only the most obvious of sarcasm is acceptable here (like me being born 24 years after the close of WW2. To be fair though, I WAS a devoted watcher of Black Sheep Squadron. I want a DVD set of that series.
 
WacoFan said:
Just to be clear though - Bunk is right and this kind of thing sucks. Only the most obvious of sarcasm is acceptable here (like me being born 24 years after the close of WW2. To be fair though, I WAS a devoted watcher of Black Sheep Squadron. I want a DVD set of that series.
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I loved watching that series as a teenager. Of course it's no way near accurate except that Boyington lead the VMF-214. For me, this book is a great definitive account of the Blacksheep and specifically Boyington.

http://www.amazon.com/Black-Sheep-B...ef=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1295884892&sr=8-2-spell

Some don't like it for the mere fact that in the author's research, he looks at Japanese records and finds that Boyington overclaimed quite a bit on his score. I like books that get through all the BS and give factual information in a well written and developed story. Granted there will always be personal interpretation of what actually happened all those years ago in VMF-214 being the auther was not there and must gather info from readings, interviews, etc. At times, some of the information...the details...was a bit overwhelming but it was nice to see a little bit of the man behind the myth. Nothing will ever take away that Boyington led a Marine fighter squadron in time of war, shot down quite a number of enemy aircraft, was seemingly fearless and a true warrior. As has been discovered by other researchers, as John B. Lungstrom, not all kill claims are valid....on both sides of the line. Not all of our aces are aces or top aces. It doesn't take away from the fact that the men of 214 were patriots and warriors who served their country honorably in time of war. I don't see where Gamble harps on Boyington as others have said. He attempts to tell it like it is, something I would rather see than make believe. Sometimes the true story is more remarkable than fiction.
 
Is it common to see mostly older people pretending to be veterans? Posers don't really have a minimum age requirement, but it seems that way. That might be indicative of the attitudes of various generations. I remember guys from Easy Company in 'Band of Brothers' talking about guys who weren't medically qualified committing suicide.

Here's a thought- could those pretending to have served be trying to assuage some sort of guilt or shame from either not serving somehow or just not being allowed to serve in uniform?
(I'm by no means making excuses for these types- I find the psychology of it interesting.)
 
Firebird2XC said:
Is it common to see mostly older people pretending to be veterans?
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I think it was a 2000 census that found that according to DOD numbers of how many served versus how many claimed to have served, four out of five were fakes. Did not serve. Never served. And then we have those in political office who 'mis-speak' and meant to say they were in the military DURING the Vietnam era. Right. And then you have the ones who throw away their medals until it is convenient and then they try to use them as currency.

Here's a thought- could those pretending to have served be trying to assuage some sort of guilt or shame from either not serving somehow or just not being allowed to serve in uniform? (I'm by no means making excuses for these types- I find the psychology of it interesting.)
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I would not think guilt over NOT serving has anything to do with it but rather not feeling any guilt about living a lie. I know quite a few guys who got Silver Stars or DFCs or Bronze Stars but you would probably never know it unless you visited their home and just possibly saw the award somewhere. Then IF you can get them to tell the story, often it is how someone else contributed to their getting the medal or how they fluked into it.
 
Orange Anchor said:
I think it was a 2000 census that found that according to DOD numbers of how many served versus how many claimed to have served, four out of five were fakes. Did not serve. Never served. And then we have those in political office who 'mis-speak' and meant to say they were in the military DURING the Vietnam era. Right. And then you have the ones who throw away their medals until it is convenient and then they try to use them as currency.

I would not think guilt over NOT serving has anything to do with it but rather not feeling any guilt about living a lie. I know quite a few guys who got Silver Stars or DFCs or Bronze Stars but you would probably never know it unless you visited their home and just possibly saw the award somewhere. Then IF you can get them to tell the story, often it is how someone else contributed to their getting the medal or how they fluked into it.
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True enough on the medal thing. One of the thing that irked me about the current military is the way they hand out medals. It could be equivalent action or achievement, but the level of award given correlates to the rank of the individual. The award of the Bronze Star in combat zones for meritorious service, for example. I'm really glad they changed the rules on that.

It would seem, then, that the general high regard that this country has for combat veterans is just something that people seeking attention use to flatter themselves. A pity.
 
Firebird2XC said:
True enough on the medal thing. One of the thing that irked me about the current military is the way they hand out medals.
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The awards and decs has always been a mess and will remain so because of the process in who submits the citation, how it is submitted, when and where the action takes place. I got a fair amount of 'salad' as a FAC but most of it was because I flew a lot of sorties and the time I flew. We had what the guys called an EOT-DFC (end of tour DFC). If you flew your missions and didn't crash, didn't put weapons on the good guys and didn't cause problems, you got a DFC as a FAC. Then there were a few missions that I thought really meant something.. they were never submitted or were returned with no action. The one incident where I broke up a strike by friendlies on friendlies almost got me into a mid-air and it was submitted. But 7th sent it back with no action saying 'we can't award a medal for a friendly stopping a friendly from bombing a friendly." And then PACAF said it would not allow the Army to award the FACs assigned to them an Army Commendation. And the USAF said they would not allow the Thai gov to award us honorary Thai wings because we were only allowed to wear USAF wings.

And then you had the salad hounds who learned the craft of writing up citations and a mission where one gomer fired an antiquated SKS at some FAC well above the effective range of the weapon was made to sound like all hell breaking loose. Part of the incentive was ribbons equaled promotions. Those with lots of rows looked better in the photo than some guy with a unit citation, marksmanship ribbon and 'alive in 65' ribbon. Even funnier was the emphasis then to get OUT of the cockpit and do some hinky-dinky job at staff creating reams of paper justifying your position.

Finally I had an IP who was driving Thuds and was on a sortie when one of the Thud drivers was awarded the MOH. My IP was put in for something like a Silver Star or an Air Force Cross. He asked why. He was told because of the work he did flying with #3. The IP said, "Well, if i get the Silver Star, so does everyone else in the flight." The staff laughed. He was serious and when they said his proposal was preposterous, he said he would decline the award if submitted. Long story short. One MOH awarded and an Air Force Cross awarded to the EWO. One other -105 driver got a Silver Star. My IP got zilch.. same mission. Same flight.

This is not to say that many didn't earn their ribbons and awards. But when 4 of 5 Vietnam 'vets' ain't really vets, well...
 
Orange Anchor said:
Finally I had an IP who was driving Thuds and was on a sortie when one of the Thud drivers was awarded the MOH. My IP was put in for something like a Silver Star or an Air Force Cross. He asked why. He was told because of the work he did flying with #3. The IP said, "Well, if i get the Silver Star, so does everyone else in the flight." The staff laughed. He was serious and when they said his proposal was preposterous, he said he would decline the award if submitted. Long story short. One MOH awarded and an Air Force Cross awarded to the EWO. One other -105 driver got a Silver Star. My IP got zilch.. same mission. Same flight....
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Only two F-105 drivers got the MOH, one was then Capt Dethlefsen and he was number three in the flight. His wing was a Major Bell whose Thud was damaged by fire by a Mig-21 and 85mm flak. The number one in the flight was shot down with the number two being damaged and left the fight early but made it back.

The other MOH awardee was then Maj Leo Thorsness who was number 2 when his lead was shot down, Kingfish 01, while Kingfish 03 and 04, engaged Migs then had to leave the battle. Thorsness stayed around, hit the tanker, came back, etc. He blasted a Mig-17 out of the sky in that battle. A few weeks later, Mig-21 pilot Le Throng Huyen shot him down and thus he spent the the last 5+ years as a POW.

This info comes from the Osprey series F-105 Thunderchief units. Anyway, if your IP was the wing to number three of one of these flights...and if the stories are correct, would he have been up for the same award as the others?
 
bunk22 said:
I loved watching that series as a teenager..
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When it was initially broadcast in the 70s (CBS?), it was called "Baa Baa Black Sheep".

When it was replayed in syndication, they'd changed the name to "Black Sheep Squadron".

I remember 'em both.
 
granlistillo said:
I hope you saw it in reruns, or you must be as old as Methuslah.
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15580-oldman.gif


I was over 18 years old when the first episode aired.
 
bunk22 said:
Only two F-105 drivers got the MOH, one was then Capt Dethlefsen and he was number three in the flight. His wing was a Major Bell whose Thud was damaged by fire by a Mig-21 and 85mm flak. The number one in the flight was shot down with the number two being damaged and left the fight early but made it back. ?
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Two did get hit but didn't not leave the fight immediately. Two took an 85mm, as I was told, up through the wing. The hole was large enough for 2 to stand in the wing for the photo. Anyway, they bolted plates on the top and the bottom of the hole, flew it to Taiwan and replaced the wing.
Hoeft, my IP, was a very honorable fellow and he did turn down the medal feeling it was sort of a compensatory award for just being there. As you have noted, others were awarded medals which is not to say they didn't earn them. Just that Hoeft felt it should not be awarded for being there and participating in the fight like lots of others.
 
Orange Anchor said:
One other -105 driver got a Silver Star. My IP got zilch.. same mission. Same flight.

This is not to say that many didn't earn their ribbons and awards. But when 4 of 5 Vietnam 'vets' ain't really vets, well...
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Great stories, and things definitely haven't changed. In Iraq in 2003, I had a Sergeant supervisor who was essentially coordinating and running our section while it was spread out over all over Iraq north of Baghdad. He did a spot on job for nearly a year in a position that was above his pay grade. In addition to this, he flew the line as a crewchief in a medevac chopper and got shot at a few times, etc. He spent a lot of time outside the wire doing his job. He got put in for a Bronze Star (for merit) and it was downgraded. Apparently you can't award a Bronze Star to a Sergeant- his rank doesn't entitle him to an award you give a Lieutenant, even if the degree of his performance and achievement did. In the Army today, both in peacetime and wartime, the level of award you receive even when you PCS is largely dictated by your rank.

This NCO didn't get his Bronze Star he rightly deserved.. but the Sergeant First Class who spent half the deployment ignoring his platoon and working on college courses in his tent on the Internet did. Rank and duty position.

I have old voice recordings my Dad made in Da Nang in '65/'66 talking about how the field grade officers in his squadron all wanted DFC's for completing their tours- because the guys in Korea got 'em. The junior officers all balked because they thought they didn't deserve them. Funny how that works.
 
Orange Anchor said:
Two did get hit but didn't not leave the fight immediately. Two took an 85mm, as I was told, up through the wing. The hole was large enough for 2 to stand in the wing for the photo. Anyway, they bolted plates on the top and the bottom of the hole, flew it to Taiwan and replaced the wing.
Hoeft, my IP, was a very honorable fellow and he did turn down the medal feeling it was sort of a compensatory award for just being there. As you have noted, others were awarded medals which is not to say they didn't earn them. Just that Hoeft felt it should not be awarded for being there and participating in the fight like lots of others.
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Yeah, the book said the hole in Hoeft's wing was a 4 ft diameter hole!!! Holy crap....what he did sounds incredible and I think he probably deserved more than he felt he did. Afterall, I used to have to hear about E-2 NFO's talk about their combat time...to go along with their bronze stars :dunno:
 
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