Stay at Atlas or leave for AA ?
- Thread starter 747driver
- Start date
Screaming_Emu
Joe Conventional
Depends on a lot, really. Age, where do you live, family, what kind of flying do you like, do you like flying with me?
I am 45 years old married .. living in Orlando FL. Have we flown together ? lol so yes I like flying with you
staying at Atlas
Pros
- the plane is amazing
- flying is easy
- they take care of your commute and lodging
- pay is decent
Cons:
- flying the backside of the clock
- different time zones
- being gone for too long
- retirement not industry standard
Go to AA
Pros:
- longevity
- major airlines
- pro missing better retirement pay
- domestic flying for the most part (narrow body)
cons:
- commute on your own
- get a crash pad since my city is not a base
- multiple legs a day
- 1st year pay can be a struggle
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
Retired UPS guy here. Personally, I'd not worry about first year pay. It's a blip. You con multiple legs a day at AA. Put yourself as a 5 year F/O at AA. Could you be on a widebody with a better schedule? Or are you a first available upgrade type and thus doomed to multiple legs a day until 65. As far as Atlas, you could be a Capt soon. It's good you are considering retirement. I blew it off until I was like 50 and then started thinking seriously about it. When you're young it's often a minor detail. Let's just say I'm lucky I was at a place with a pension cause it made the pain less for me being dumb about retirement. One thing you don't mention. Do you care about pax vs freight. I really liked not having to worry about the pax side of things. How far out is upgrade at AA? I guess that's impossible to know but you should take a stab at it at least. Your post makes me glad I was too stupid to think about going anywhere else once I got hired at brown at 29. The whole things a crapshoot.
Thank you so much for replying. What you said makes a whole lot of sense. I’ve considered AA due do the base initially and I also have a lot of friends at AA that enjoys the company.
Pax doesn’t bother me.
But I would eventually go to a widebody at AA
Upgrade at AA is in a neighborhood of 2.5 years right now. And at atlas my upgrade is coming in 1 year.
And yes I would like to upgrade ASAP at AA if the opportunity is given, but also going to a widebody for a better scheduled sounds good too. I am pretty flexible when it comes to that.
Thank you for your insight. Really appreciate it.
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
Wow. 2.5 years at AA for upgrade. I never would have imagined that. The retirements must be huge. It's hard to argue that Atlas would be more stable than AA, like you could if it was UPS. I would have included Fedex in the argument but I guess things aren't well there. I didn't mind long haul flying if it had long layovers. If you get a lot of 24 hour layovers it's horrible. You also have to consider what it's going to be like as a junior Capt at Atlas. Not sure if they still do Amazon domestic on the 76 but that's a completely different lifestyle.
ASpilot2be
Qbicle seat warmer
That's a tough call for sure. I am approaching the two year mark at Atlas, and I left the left seat of a ULCC to be here. There's so many variables to consider. One of the big ones is what are we gonna get in the next contract? Hopefully it's less working days, more money, and improvement on the retirement. But if the flying doesn't work for you, then the cons of this job are hard to ignore.
JDean3204
Well-Known Member
I left an ACMI carrier for the airlines in 2023. My biggest issue is not getting as much time off in chunks like I used to, but on the other end of that I’m not packing for a two week trip anymore either. I also drive to work, albeit a rather long drive. So getting a local or 2day is more of a pain like it is for commuters as well. Good thing is, while everyone else is complaining about 4 day trips you’re not even warmed up by the time it’s go home leg.
It’s a good problem to have, one I’m sure you’ll find the answer to. I don’t think either decision is bad, but if you didn’t want to leave ACMI you probably wouldn’t have even applied to the majors. The difference in retirement in the 20 years you have left will be huge, everything else will be the same. Some good, some bad as you’ve laid out already.
It’s a good problem to have, one I’m sure you’ll find the answer to. I don’t think either decision is bad, but if you didn’t want to leave ACMI you probably wouldn’t have even applied to the majors. The difference in retirement in the 20 years you have left will be huge, everything else will be the same. Some good, some bad as you’ve laid out already.
Screaming_Emu
Joe Conventional
Given what you've posted, it's hard to say. If you want to go to a real airline then definitely smart to do it sooner rather than later. When I was an FO I assumed that at some point I'd get tired of this and go find a real flying job. I had a hard time really pursuing it for a bunch of reasons, then I upgraded and I think I'm here for life.
Reasons I'm staying:
17 days is too many, but I love having almost half the month off at home. Once you get 3 or 4 weeks of vacation every 3rd or 4th month turns into a non event. When I land at home Sunday evening I have 28 days off. In February I'll work a 5 days due to vacation slide before my usual 12ish days off.
I love the kind of flying we do. I'm kind of tired of the same destinations, but that's gonna happen anywhere. Even on the widebodies at a major, you're only going to go to a handful of places. At least we get the occasional unique destination. Flying a 737 3-4 legs a day and ending up in Albany, NY would become just a job to me.
Many may disagree, but redeyes are more exhausting than anything than the long haul stuff. Any time I do ANC-ORD/CVG/JFK without a relief pilot it wrecks me.
The commute. I live in the hills of western NC so going to a real airline would involve either a 2-3 hour drive or a commute via jumpseat. I did that already in my career and would prefer to avoid if possible. Bonus points for getting all the miles from commuting/deadhead. We've made some pretty incredible trips out of those miles.
Reasons to consider leaving
Long term money. Yeah. I would make more money over the 24 years I have left in my career if I went somewhere else. But until a few years ago my career was 12-13 years of "yeah, I know this sucks but once (fill in the blank) happens life will be better." Life isn't perfect, but it's pretty damn good. I'm not ready to toss that away for a maybe. I have to be honest and say that of the big three AA is the one that would excite me not even a little bit.
All in all, nobody can answer what the right move is for you but maybe some thinking out loud might help you sift through your own thoughts and make the decision clearer. In the meantime, see you at breakfast in ICN!
Reasons I'm staying:
17 days is too many, but I love having almost half the month off at home. Once you get 3 or 4 weeks of vacation every 3rd or 4th month turns into a non event. When I land at home Sunday evening I have 28 days off. In February I'll work a 5 days due to vacation slide before my usual 12ish days off.
I love the kind of flying we do. I'm kind of tired of the same destinations, but that's gonna happen anywhere. Even on the widebodies at a major, you're only going to go to a handful of places. At least we get the occasional unique destination. Flying a 737 3-4 legs a day and ending up in Albany, NY would become just a job to me.
Many may disagree, but redeyes are more exhausting than anything than the long haul stuff. Any time I do ANC-ORD/CVG/JFK without a relief pilot it wrecks me.
The commute. I live in the hills of western NC so going to a real airline would involve either a 2-3 hour drive or a commute via jumpseat. I did that already in my career and would prefer to avoid if possible. Bonus points for getting all the miles from commuting/deadhead. We've made some pretty incredible trips out of those miles.
Reasons to consider leaving
Long term money. Yeah. I would make more money over the 24 years I have left in my career if I went somewhere else. But until a few years ago my career was 12-13 years of "yeah, I know this sucks but once (fill in the blank) happens life will be better." Life isn't perfect, but it's pretty damn good. I'm not ready to toss that away for a maybe. I have to be honest and say that of the big three AA is the one that would excite me not even a little bit.
All in all, nobody can answer what the right move is for you but maybe some thinking out loud might help you sift through your own thoughts and make the decision clearer. In the meantime, see you at breakfast in ICN!
JDean3204
Well-Known Member
Unless you live in the junior base well within the call time. That’s the only way to take the sting of forever reserve at a junior base watching everyone else jump you when they upgrade. The OP isn’t in that situation, so for this I’d agree 100% with what you said!
jhugz
Well-Known Member
I left as a 5 year ACMI CA on the 74 at your competitor. It was a tough decision, but looking back it was the best decision I ever made for my career.
Couple different factors, I was about 10 years younger when I made the hop, and I live in base.
Pay is one factor, but the difference in QoL and retirement was staggering.
Couple different factors, I was about 10 years younger when I made the hop, and I live in base.
Pay is one factor, but the difference in QoL and retirement was staggering.
Soku39
Well-Known Member
IMO AA is poorly run and will continue to be poorly run in perpetuity with no desire to compete other than "we're big". AA/DL axe RJs, we double down on Envoy/PSA. UA/DL offer free wifi and in seat IFE, AA offers neither. UA/DL expand in house non stop intl, AA wonders if you would like to connect in LHR? Point is the place has untapped potential that no leadership wants to harness and apparently never will. We also have the blessing of an awful in house union, the APA. @Screaming_Emu hit the nail on the head with not being excited about AA, UA is taking 737s to the Azores and exploring other new markets. Delta smartly didn't mothball their A330s and are taking them to Africa. AA has doubled down regional feed and narrowbody domestic as the Boeing and 787 debacle continues to unfold. If you want 30 hour TUL and MCI overnights AA is your place! That said it's a legacy, with legacy 401k pay and benefits and steady work but overall our contract is worth way less in soft time than DL or UA, expect to make 20-30% less than the same 737 driver at either of those two for the same or more effort. That said, I don't think AA is going away and will provide steady work, you won't need to worry about upgrading as year 3 pay and beyond will net you $200k without trying as a NB FO.
The cons I see fort Atlas are contract uncertainty as cargo continues to turn into a regional style whipsaw and trip length, which is a lifestyle that you either can or can't do it.
There are also about 1,000 commuters from MCO to MIA, but people do it, some guys even take Brightline.
I had a crashpad in nyc for about 2 months before I could commute to my line and pay for the occasional hotel 2 times a month. I would expect the same out of MIA.
Good luck on your decision.
The cons I see fort Atlas are contract uncertainty as cargo continues to turn into a regional style whipsaw and trip length, which is a lifestyle that you either can or can't do it.
There are also about 1,000 commuters from MCO to MIA, but people do it, some guys even take Brightline.
I had a crashpad in nyc for about 2 months before I could commute to my line and pay for the occasional hotel 2 times a month. I would expect the same out of MIA.
Good luck on your decision.
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Soku39
Well-Known Member
Depends on how Sr/Jr MCO is. I didn't mean to disparage AA completely, its a fine to goodish place to work. Just not great. It'll do for a career, I would just like to never be furloughed and I'll retire happy.
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
Wasn’t AA the first to hit the big hump of retirements? I thought I had heard that even assuming no black swan their movement slows down quite a bit now.
FlyinSol0
Well-Known Member
From what I’ve seen of the W2 threads/my W2, I think AA/DL/UA make roughly the same. 20-30% less is hyperbole.
Rest of the complaints are *shrug* not that important over a 20-30 year career to me. Feels more like the constantly negative guys I’ve flown with for the past ~15 years. There’s always something.
To the OP, I’ve been really happy at AA. I was happy enough at Eagle too, even during the suck, so maybe I’m an idiot. That being said, I think the “job security” is worth leaving an ACMI for the big 3.
Peak retirements are actually 2026, I don’t know the comparisons to UA or DL. Looks like about 6,500 retirements in the next 10 years, 10,500 in 20.