Staffing at Lower Level Facilities

[gimpfest]

There's a few of them. They're in that link in the OP.



Ahh.. ok. So those lower-level gaps on the pay scale don't mean the positions don't exist, they just mean there's no adjustment at that point. Once a lower level trainee gets CPC, I'm assuming they can apply for positions just like anyone else. Right?



Is this an FAA publication? Do you have a link to it?

OK - so how does that work at an UP/DOWN that is missing the first or second pay band? I understand you check out in the cab first, then back to OKC for radar - so do you not see an increase after checking out in the cab if the first pay grade is missing?

 

[Barty]

OK - so how does that work at an UP/DOWN that is missing the first or second pay band? I understand you check out in the cab first, then back to OKC for radar - so do you not see an increase after checking out in the cab if the first pay grade is missing?

No, you get your first pay raise after you check out in the cab. The first pay band is indeed missing, but since the tower constitutes 50% of the training, you move straight up to D2, AFAIK. That's how it has been explained to me.

 

[gimpfest]

Gotcha - any Idea the average for a cab checkout?

So after Radar training, back to the facility, then there is D3 prior to CPC - how is that split in a tracon?

 

[Barty]

I'm not too sure there, you'd have to ask someone like HiDef to answer that one. It probably depends on how complex the radar environment is at that facility.

 

[HiDef]

Gotcha - any Idea the average for a cab checkout?

So after Radar training, back to the facility, then there is D3 prior to CPC - how is that split in a tracon?

Average checkout will be different based on the level facility, prior experience and ability to learn. Me and another VRA at my facility took about a month to get through the tower but we had worked a few military towers and a contract tower each. The CTI's are taking longer, on average 6-8 months, because they have never held a CTO (tower rating). So far we haven't had any OTS. Heres the oddity though, we have another person that tranfered from another FAA facility, tower only (checked out there too), and he has been in local training for about 5 months. So what may be easy to some could be harder for others.

What Barty said is correct about pay raises. The tower is 50% of the training at a level 7 so thats when you get your first raise. D3 will come when you get assist and once scope in the radar room. We have four positions downstairs. I wish I had a link so you could see what I'm talking about but I've yet to find the nontract on the net.

HD

 

[gimpfest]

Thanks HiDef - so I assume you are at an up/down now?

I have been told they can be great first facilities - what are your thoughts on that?

 

[HiDef]

Thanks HiDef - so I assume you are at an up/down now?

I have been told they can be great first facilities - what are your thoughts on that?

Yes, I am at a combined facility now.

I think mid level up/downs are a great place for new hires to start at. If the FAA knew what it was doing they wouldn't be sending OTS hires to anything above a level 8. The FAA is setting these people up to fail and is more worried about their numbers in front of congress than creating a successful workforce. If there is any way you can get to a mid level up/down as oppossed to a center or level 9 and up tower/tracon, by all means go for it. Even though we're a mid level facility we still have times when we have ass kicking traffic. Its not 24/7 like NY, LA and ATL but on a busy day you'll work the whole 70 mile airspace alone with anywhere from 12-15 aircraft on frequency. Like I said, if you have a chance to get to a level 8 or below for your first facility, I think it would benefit you greatly in the long run and guarantee job security for the future. Its just like every other job, nobody should ever start out at the top.

HD

 

[Piker]

Its like every other job, who ever starts out at the top?

Ok, I'm still rough on the terminology. An Up/Down is a Tower-Terminal combination?

Also, suppose an OTS hire starts at a level 7 or so and gets certified. What's the process for moving up the ladder later? It doesn't make sense to me that some OTS applicants are thrown straight into level 10, where they stay after getting certified. It's like the new kid cutting in line in front of the ten year veteran.

 

[chichi]

Ok, I'm still rough on the terminology. An Up/Down is a Tower-Terminal combination?

Up/Down = Combined Tower/TRACON
Tower and TRACON are both terminal.

 

[pm577]

It's like the new kid cutting in line in front of the ten year veteran.

Except that veterans are not lining up for higher rated facilities...
They have to take a pay-cut to the new scale if they move to another facility. Therefore the FAA has put this upon themselves. With two pay-scales they are forced to hire OTS into level 10+ facilities

 

[HiDef]

Ok, I'm still rough on the terminology. An Up/Down is a Tower-Terminal combination?

Also, suppose an OTS hire starts at a level 7 or so and gets certified. What's the process for moving up the ladder later? It doesn't make sense to me that some OTS applicants are thrown straight into level 10, where they stay after getting certified. It's like the new kid cutting in line in front of the ten year veteran.

:yeahthat:

Yea, up/down= as in, "am I up (in the tower) or am I down (in the tracon) today?"

Right now just about every facility is starting to hurt for bodies so if you're at a facility with horrible manning, the chances of your facility releasing you to another one is slim. It all may change though 5-6 years down the road if the FAA can replace the veterans that are leaving. Its doubtful but eventually things may get better. I would plan on being at your first facility for awhile though. And don't forget, you want to make sure you give back whatever time the facility put into you before you up and try to transfer right after checking out.

HD

 

[Piker]

Up/Down = Combined Tower/TRACON
Tower and TRACON are both terminal.

Thanks. Does anyone have a list of Up/Down facilities? I have lists of everything else it seems.

you want to make sure you give back whatever time the facility put into you before you up and try to transfer right after checking out.

Yeah. I'm thinking long term. I could really use some info in this area. Say I go into a Level 7 facility and stay there for a few years. How do I move up the ladder? Do the higher ups have some sort of qualitative record of my ATC work - separation errors, efficiency, etc.

Or is it more quantitative? total flights handled, time on the clock. Or is it neither-closer to just a blessing from the supervisor and a back room phone call.

And should I even ask how you switch from Terminal to En Route or vice versa?

 

[Piker]

The criteria for all of this is listed in the back of the white book.

Also, while I'm rehashing old topics, what is this white book?

 

[nathanw]

Thanks. Does anyone have a list of Up/Down facilities? I have lists of everything else it seems.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ato/tracon/

Everything on the list that has "ATCT/TRACON" at the end of it.

 

[HiDef]

Thanks. Does anyone have a list of Up/Down facilities? I have lists of everything else it seems.



Yeah. I'm thinking long term. I could really use some info in this area. Say I go into a Level 7 facility and stay there for a few years. How do I move up the ladder? Do the higher ups have some sort of qualitative record of my ATC work - separation errors, efficiency, etc.

Or is it more quantitative? total flights handled, time on the clock. Or is it neither-closer to just a blessing from the supervisor and a back room phone call.

And should I even ask how you switch from Terminal to En Route or vice versa?

The FAA will put bids out for openings on the FAA website. In the bid it will have general requirements to qualify for the position. How the picking is actually done, I have no idea. Quick story though, we are getting a new manager in Sep. We heard something like 15 people applied for the slot including our temp. manager who has been a sup for maybe 5 or more years at the facility in question. The job however went to a supervisor from a level 6 tower only. The best part, he was a CTI grad in 2001...and hes going to be a manager now!!! He will have more ATC experience than 3 of our current controllers out of about 20. Thats it! That my friend is how the FAA choosesanic:

Anyway, the white book is the "nontract" or imposed set of rules the FAA laid on us. The cover is white so its the white book. The old one was green so it was refered to as the green book.

HD