Spins

bc2209

bc2209

Well-Known Member
I sent my first student ever to his private pilot check-ride the other day. He was asked a series of questions about stalls and spins. Now, this totally reflects on me and indeed is my fault.

He was asked if we spin, which way are we going to spin? He had no idea.

And to be honest I was not as prepared to answer the question either. So after doing my research I found the answer.

Brings me to the question of why are spins not required for any other rating or certificate besides CFI?

It's possibly one of the greatest and difficult to recovery killers out there I suppose in my own new CFI opinions. Yet private pilots, nor instrument, nor commercial certificates and ratings require anything but the knowledge part.
Why is that? Have there not been enough deaths caused by spins for the FAA to require spin training for every new pilot? Or do they assume that the knowledge and theory behind the recovery is sufficient enough for pilots.
 
The following is unconfirmed, but here ya go.

I was once told by an instructor that the FAA concluded that more people were killed in spin accidents during training than in accidental spins in non-training environments. Thus, the lack of requirement for spin training. No idea if that's true, but it's the story I got.

Spins are a good time! I want to go do more!
 
The examiner could've just asked about the left turning tendencies.. I'm sure the student would have known then. Just depends on how he worded it I guess.. If I asked most private pilots "Which way will an airplane spin?" Kind of a loaded question... It can spin either way, just far more likely to go to the left.
 
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I've always been taught that the plane will not spin in a stall while in coordinated flight. Ergo, all things being equal, if the ball is left or right of center (uncoordinated flight) in a deep enough stall, the airplane will break and spin in that direction.

This is consistent with my spin training which was basically bring the aircraft to a stall, then step on the rudder in the direction desired for the spin to develop. Cue the PARE method for recovery.
 
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I showed up early the day my CFI for my PPL said we were going to address spins. The first couple were a bit disconcerting but after I did them myself all I I wanted to do was climb up and do it again, over and over. My personal opinion is that anyone given a cert to fly an airplane should have training in all the stalls in the PTS and spin recovery, not knowledge but a practical proficiency as well.
 
bc2209 said:
I sent my first student ever to his private pilot check-ride the other day. He was asked a series of questions about stalls and spins. Now, this totally reflects on me and indeed is my fault.

He was asked if we spin, which way are we going to spin? He had no idea.

And to be honest I was not as prepared to answer the question either. So after doing my research I found the answer.

Brings me to the question of why are spins not required for any other rating or certificate besides CFI?

It's possibly one of the greatest and difficult to recovery killers out there I suppose in my own new CFI opinions. Yet private pilots, nor instrument, nor commercial certificates and ratings require anything but the knowledge part.
Why is that? Have there not been enough deaths caused by spins for the FAA to require spin training for every new pilot? Or do they assume that the knowledge and theory behind the recovery is sufficient enough for pilots.
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Think of it like the financial crisis... Making and taking bad loans seemed like a good idea at the time because some folks thought everyone should own a house and everyone seemed to be getting rich. So many people -on both the making and taking sides- got sucked into bad, irresponsible behavior. Everyone felt good because it seemed like everyone was getting rich. But debt doesn't go away... so eventually the structural problem was revealed. So to fix the structural problem the bad behavior went unpunished. In fact, it was rewarded in the form of bailouts all around. So we still have a financial structural problem, only now a worse one.
Back in the days when most pilots came out of the military, you could be fairly well assured that most of them knew what a spin was and how to recover from one. But, like homeowners in the days before free money, military pilots were a small percentage of the population. But, then folks thought it would be a great idea if everyone became pilots (think of the industry and aviation consumer growth). So, all kinds of average folks were encouraged to go into aviation. But by then most of the old timers who knew how to teach spins were gone or at least not teaching. And like a copy of a copy of a copy (or the scions of certain political dynasties) things got fuzzy and the knowledge and skill levels of the teachers diminished to the point that way too many people were having accidents while spinning. Some attempts were made to address this, like the introduction of the Tomahawk. Unfortunately, because the T-hawk was designed to recover from spins slowly and as a result of correct, sustained pilot inputs, the T-hawk only exacerbated the situation because the real problem was a general lack of skills and knowledge. So then, instead of addressing the structural problem of poor pilot education and training, the FAA through up its hands and said, "we just won't teach spins anymore." This response, like the response to the financial crisis, only made the situation worse, while temporarily making the situation seem better.
 
You're ok man. I wouldn't worry too much about it - but for next time....

If the question would have popped out during flight, I'd understand he got pressured initially and not know the answer on the fly. However, on the ground, given more time...just think about it. What stops a spin? Opposite rudder. Just like a Multi, what makes the plane go where you want it to when an engine quits? Speed and Opposite Rudder, mostly.
I think more than being a requirement to actually doing spins and recoveries in Private pilot courses, students should study aerodynamics enough to understand what is going on. Unfortunately not everyone has that willingness to learn. I'd just talk about the subject with students and whoever wants to actually do them, take them for a spin. Pun intended.

Take care
 
MaRiO FDZ said:
I think more than being a requirement to actually doing spins and recoveries in Private pilot courses, students should study aerodynamics enough to understand what is going on. Unfortunately not everyone has that willingness to learn.
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If you're going to fly an airplane safely and proficiently, you need both an intellectual AND a visceral understanding. One informs the other... and vice versa.
 
Another great spin discussion for students (of all levels) is to talk about the differences between spins aND spiral dives.
 
tlewis95 said:
Another great spin discussion for students (of all levels) is to talk about the differences between spins aND spiral dives.
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When I was a stage pilot I asked every. single. student. "what is the difference between a spin and a spiral dive?" as part of my spin discussion. Not. one. single. applicant. knew.
 
I think cross control stall demonstrations is more practical for commercial applicants than spins...and I think those should be introduced to private students.

While I've always understood and supported the argument that spins should be incorporated into private training (or commercial) I can see why it isn't. I think something like stalling the aircraft turning base to final is much more practical in your lifetime then spinning an aircraft....but before anyone gets their gears all riled up...that's just my opinion.
 
gotWXdagain said:
When I was a stage pilot I asked every. single. student. "what is the difference between a spin and a spiral dive?" as part of my spin discussion. Not. one. single. applicant. knew.
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Same. Never got a good answer from any people on Flight Reviews either. Even CFIs
 
Ayork62493 said:
The examiner could've just asked about the left turning tendencies.. I'm sure the student would have known then. Just depends on how he worded it I guess.. If I asked most private pilots "Which way will an airplane spin?" Kind of a loaded question... It can spin either way, just far more likely to go to the left.
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The one and only unintentional spin I've ever encountered (it was a student) was to the right.

The question "which way are we going to spin? " depends on what you are doing at the time.
 
image.jpg


Step 1: Buy it.

Step 2: Read it.

Step 3: Go get some real spin instruction from a qualified instructor who specializes in this sort of thing.

Step 4: Read it again.

Step 5: Pass on quality instruction to your students.
 
bc2209 said:
He was asked if we spin, which way are we going to spin? He had no idea.

And to be honest I was not as prepared to answer the question either. So after doing my research I found the answer.
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The explanation is fairly simple. How and why it happens along with direction of the departure is not always so obvious. What answer did you end up giving your student?
 
Crop Duster said:
If you're going to fly an airplane safely and proficiently, you need both an intellectual AND a visceral understanding. One informs the other... and vice versa.
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I kinda agree. I feel aviation is more of a 75% Intellectual and 25% visceral. Specially if you fly IFR. The reason I believe private Pilot students don't need to do spins is this:

Private pilot students are required to do 45* turns while in commercial ones are required to do 60*. Same here, Private Students should be required to at least know what's going on, unless the student asks to do it. Commercial Pilots students should be able to do the manouver proficiently.
For every person that REALLY wants to fly for a Living, there's one that wants to fly for himself. Those are the ones that get terrified with Slow Flight and IMC. They SHOULD know, but I'm pretty sure they'd freak out if you pull a spin on them. I've known plenty of fellas that started flying only to double guess if they should once they reach Stalls, Slow Flight, or IFR, and most of them eventually dropped out of their goal of doing this for a Living.

Take care
 
Roger Roger said:
That's just...I don't even know.
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Like I said above, this has become a serious structural problem. And it's not just spins. There is a serious lack of knowledge and experience in the training community. Instead of elevating training to the top of the career ladder (where it should be, imo) we've relegated it to the bottom as a career stepping stone. Even this model could work if good teachers mentored and taught other good teachers. Instead, to way too large an extent, we've ended up with the blind leading the blind.
 
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