Spins on primary training

[MikeD]

Even for me, this is an issue I've changed opinions on over time. Check out this thread I started from almost 4 years ago when I was a relatively new CFI:

http://forums.jetcareers.com/cfi-corner/19032-rant-about-why-we-need-mandatory-spin-training.html

I was strongly in favor of mandatory spin training at that point in time.

Now I've come to see a lot more variety in training and don't have nearly as strong of an opinion. I still think spins are a great activity, but have no desire to make them mandatory. There are bigger fish to fry in the flight training world.

Who ARE those guys in that thread! Wow.....talk about way back machine. And you and I were the first and second posters.

I still agree mostly with what I wrote there too.....lean towards the pro side of the fence, but am more understanding of the anti-side of the fence too, for reasons jrh has stated both here as well as offline. I'd mentioned before that I see spins as the "extra cherry on the ice cream sundae".....great to have, and always a good thing; but by no means a deal breaker on whether a guy is a good, safe pilot or not. I'd love if all students wanted spin training and would love to give it.....aerobatic and advanced handling training too; but reality is, that just isn't the case.

As with Mark from that thread, and now jrh.....I'm more on the fence on it than I was at that time.

We all evolve.

 

[c172captain]

Yes.

How far do you let the simulated engine failure go? Touchdown?? 200ft AGL? In Socal I try to stay about 1000ft AGL just because everyone is so touchy. I'd be putting myself in jail if I thought about actually touching down somewhere

 

[jhugz]

I just want to say that the excuse of I am afraid of doing a spin don't want to do em, deal with em, etc...is ridiculous. If anyone is unwilling to do a maneuver that they can get themselves into with a instructor should not be flying an airplane. We aren't asking them to do snap roles, barrel rolls etc, because we don't expect them to get into that unless they are doing it on purpose. However a spin should be done whether the student feels comfortable about it or not. Thats like saying I am afraid of Power-On stalls so I am just not going to practice them or do them. I know how to stay out of a power-on stall and know how to recover according to the book, but I just don't want to do one in the airplane. That wouldn't of flown back then and instructors should not let that fly now.

 

[jrh]

How far do you let the simulated engine failure go? Touchdown?? 200ft AGL? In Socal I try to stay about 1000ft AGL just because everyone is so touchy. I'd be putting myself in jail if I thought about actually touching down somewhere

If we're using an actual runway, I'll take it all the way down to touchdown. This is common for when we're flying near small, uncontrolled airports.

If we're using a field and there are no farm houses nearby, I'll take it down until lined up on final when it becomes glaringly obvious if we could make the field or not, so usually a couple hundred AGL.

If we're over an area where no good landing spot is apparent (very rare here in Nebraska) I usually call it off between 500-1000 AGL. This is so that in case the engine doesn't come back to life I have a few seconds to take the controls and do the best I can with whatever we've got underneath us.

 

[MikeD]

I just want to say that the excuse of I am afraid of doing a spin don't want to do em, deal with em, etc...is ridiculous. If anyone is unwilling to do a maneuver that they can get themselves into with a instructor should not be flying an airplane. We aren't asking them to do snap roles, barrel rolls etc, because we don't expect them to get into that unless they are doing it on purpose. However a spin should be done whether the student feels comfortable about it or not. Thats like saying I am afraid of Power-On stalls so I am just not going to practice them or do them. I know how to stay out of a power-on stall and know how to recover according to the book, but I just don't want to do one in the airplane. That wouldn't of flown back then and instructors should not let that fly now.

I agree with your premise.....no, we aren't teaching acro (though I'd love to!), and yes teaching spins does have a practical application, just as you mention, and that I again agree with.

However, it was much easier to push this way of thinking....for both of us....back when spins were a required part of the syllabus for PPL. Now that they aren't, forcing a student to do them or not pass, isn't going to be easy to enforce, nor practical. I'd love to explain to a student the reason to at least see and practice a recovery on one ride, but if they don't want to, or have airsick tendencies towards highly unusual attitudes, or are simply scared by it.....legally, there's nothing now to force the issue.

Because this is now what we have to work with....these are the cards we as CFIs/IPs are dealt; we now have to flex towards being able to go either direction on this with a student, and still create a safe, prudent Private Pilot in the end.

 

[jrh]

I just want to say that the excuse of I am afraid of doing a spin don't want to do em, deal with em, etc...is ridiculous. ... However a spin should be done whether the student feels comfortable about it or not.

Ok, I disagree with your philosophy, but let me offer some advice if you really insist on doing spins with everyone you train: Do whatever you possibly can to make your students feel comfortable with the idea of spinning. In other words, help them understand spins are a completely safe, controlled, routine maneuver.

This means giving a very thorough briefing over what will happen, why it happens, what it will look like, what it will feel like, what regulations pertain to spins, why it matters, what safety precautions you'll be taking, how to recover, etc.

Don't be one of those old school instructors who hops in the plane, growls something about showing them spins today, then blasts off without any explanation of what the heck is going on.

If a person is going to learn anything, they can't feel scared, trapped, pressured, distrusting of their instructor, etc. Spins have to be approached with the right attitude for a student to have a good experience with them. Otherwise they'll end up losing trust in you and having more fear than before.

Hopefully you already know this, but I thought I'd throw this out there for any CFIs who are lurking and thinking to themselves, "Darn right, I'm gonna go show my student what this is all about tomorrow! No more sissy scaredy cat crap anymore."

There's a big difference between insisting that this training take place and forcing it to take place.

 

[moxiepilot]

I've missed so much overnight. Thanks for speakig my mind jrh

 

[Bernoulli Fan]

How far do you let the simulated engine failure go? Touchdown?? 200ft AGL? In Socal I try to stay about 1000ft AGL just because everyone is so touchy. I'd be putting myself in jail if I thought about actually touching down somewhere

Try the "emergency field" in Simi Valley if you're out of SMO, VNY, BUR, etc. It's big enough to be 500' from any structure, vessel, etc. down to a very low altitude if you verify no farmers are out there that day. It's almost due west of VNY, about 13 or 14 miles out.

 

[Douglas]

Do you guys do this with your students?

Nope. Typically we would have to push it out of a field if we tried that.

We do go down below the tree line, though. I think we get a pretty good idea of where we would have touched down from there.

(But I like what your instructor did, I am going to look for a dirt road, void of many things. I might report back on this, if I ever find one.)

 

[c172captain]

Try the "emergency field" in Simi Valley if you're out of SMO, VNY, BUR, etc. It's big enough to be 500' from any structure, vessel, etc. down to a very low altitude if you verify no farmers are out there that day. It's almost due west of VNY, about 13 or 14 miles out.

That's the exact field I used on the CFI checkride :nana2:Although I did get just above touchdown with the examiner, I wouldn't feel confortable getting that low with a student simply because if someone does claim we were close to them, I don't have the political weight to throw around and tell them they're stupid (like a DPE would be able to do). I'm a big scaredy cat.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

As with Mark from that thread, and now jrh.....I'm more on the fence on it than I was at that time.

We all evolve.

Yikes! I just read that thread and haven't changed my view at all. Must be a sign of old age.

 

[Blackhawk]

I give my students the option of spin training. Most want it; I've had a few who were too heavy.
If possible I would recommend getting the person some specialized spin training first followed by spins in their training aircraft to show the differences. Also, spin training without a good sound ground session is almost worthless. Empasize (among other things), the possible handling differences between an airplane in the utility and normal category; possible spin scenarios; incipient spin recognition and recovery; spin aerodynamics; specific spin characteristics of their airplane. (Cessna has a pamphlet on spins in most 100 series airplanes that is available.)
I go back and forth on the issue of spin training, and two of the leading trainers in the field- Bill Kershner and Rich Stowell had slightly different opinions on requiring spin training for private pilots.
Parachutes. I wear them. There have been cases of pilots getting into unrecoverable spins, even in aerobatic airplanes (although these were usually loaded outside the aerobatic range). Granted, sitting in the back of my airplane in a spin I'm probably screwed if I have to get out, but at least the student should be able to.
Finally, I would hesitate to throw a full spin at a pilot to get him/her over the fear of it. Usually I like to lead them up to it. Power on stalls; falling leaf stalls; incipient spins; then spins. Once they are comfortable with one stage, we move to the next. Flying should be an enjoyable experience.

 

[mattc206]

Intresting to see how are things done in the states, up here in Canada, Spins have to be shown to the student at the PPL level, before they can go solo, and they learn recovery, and on the CPL flt test the spin is a flight test item.

 

[Blackhawk]

Intresting to see how are things done in the states, up here in Canada, Spins have to be shown to the student at the PPL level, before they can go solo, and they learn recovery, and on the CPL flt test the spin is a flight test item.

This has been a great debate in the US- even among spin instructors. The feeling among the "anti make PPL applicants do spins" crowd is that requiring spins often leads to the "blind leading the blind", CFIs with very litle spin knowledge or experience teaching spins teaching spins to student pilots. I know I go back and forth on this. Sometimes I feel all student pilots should do spins. Then I hear ridiculous statements from CFIs... such as, "A stall is when you fly too slow". Then I'm not sure every CFI should be teaching spins.

 

[Fly_Unity]

No worries, you make some good points. I just think it's easy to look at it from an outside perspective and think one thing, then actually start dealing with it on a daily basis and completely change your mind. Classroom training and flight training are two entirely different ballgames. During flight training, the instructor has to deal with the student's emotions, instincts, and reflexes much more so than a ground instructor ever does. It's a higher stress environment which is why spin training is a touchy subject. It affects new pilots on a level much deeper than academics.

Even for me, this is an issue I've changed opinions on over time. Check out this thread I started from almost 4 years ago when I was a relatively new CFI:

http://forums.jetcareers.com/cfi-corner/19032-rant-about-why-we-need-mandatory-spin-training.html

I was strongly in favor of mandatory spin training at that point in time.

Now I've come to see a lot more variety in training and don't have nearly as strong of an opinion. I still think spins are a great activity, but have no desire to make them mandatory. There are bigger fish to fry in the flight training world.

hehe, you sound about like me, I used to also think strongly about mandatory spin training for PPL students. After 1500 hours dual given, not so much, I give them spin awareness training, and even some slightly uncoordinated stalls, If they have a desire to take it further, then I have no problem teaching it. I havnt decided on which side of the fence to take on this issue, but I do know that I can train safe pilots without ever doing a full blown spin.

(Also I find it funny at how many newer instructors at my school always talks about how this one student accidently put them in a spin and how they struggled to take the controls and finally saved the day.. maybe its just me, but I dont think I ever had even the worst student of mine put me in anything more slightly uncoordinated stall where a wing would really drop, Maybe its because I would show them what happens if the nose moves left or right when stalling, and explain how to pick up the wing with rudder before I even let them do their first stall by themselves)

 

[Fly_Unity]

Then I hear ridiculous statements from CFIs... such as, "A stall is when you fly too slow". Then I'm not sure every CFI should be teaching spins.

I think the main reason for this is to dumb it down so the common person can understand it. A guy came in our airport the other day and asked if we practiced stalls and how easy it was to restart the engine. Are you gonna tell him that a stall is when the flight path exceeds the critical angle of attack and him leaving like without a clue of what you just said? or just explain that there is insufficient air going over the wings to provide lift? I dont know..

 

[Blackhawk]

I think the main reason for this is to dumb it down so the common person can understand it. A guy came in our airport the other day and asked if we practiced stalls and how easy it was to restart the engine. Are you gonna tell him that a stall is when the flight path exceeds the critical angle of attack and him leaving like without a clue of what you just said? or just explain that there is insufficient air going over the wings to provide lift? I dont know..

I've actually heard this from CFI applicants coming in for spin training. One guy who said this was insulted that I actually have ground- that we don't just go up in the airplane and do a few spins. Then he was irritated that I asked him to give me a class on spins.

 

[juskl]

You gotta love the ones whom think they know it all, only to not know a damn thing. Having them teach you is a great way to truly find out what they think they know.... And usually ends up being not much.

We emphasize the hell out of stalls. We do them over and over and over (power on, off, turning, cross control, delayed recovery, etc..) We do them with every license, rating that we teach. The overall goal is so that the student recognizes the impending stall and takes the appropriate action to get out of it.

After they have their Private in hand, I recommend that they go up with one of us to do spins in the Great Lakes biplanes that we use. To experience them in the Nth degree. The more training the merrier.

Spins do scare the hell out of most pilots. Most of the flight instructors that we do spin endorsements for are pretty apprehensive. Though, they do well for the most part. I am on the pro spin side. But at the right time. I think that all pilots should get spin training. And the point that they get it depends on the student or pilot. Some students pilots I have trained would be ready on the first flight (though no learning benefit would occur at that point). Others would go into cardiac arrest.

But as with all things aerobatic, go somewhere that knows what they are doing, with capable equipment.

Also reality is reality and the training should reflect this. Meaning, on simulated engine failures, I only go below 500 AGL when I as an instructor can guarantee a safe landing should an emergency be encountered.....(usually every time). At least my students have been there and done that, if they encounter the real deal. Now to be fair, our practice area is engine out haven with farm fields and farm roads a plenty.

 

[mshunter]

So you think a private pilot should be able to perform steep turns how precisely? +/- 5 knots? 20 feet? Heck, I can't even do that unless it's smooth.

Need to work on them skillz man.:crazy:

I don't know about Jhugz or Pat, in my case you are right, I am not a CFI.
My attitude or statements are the result of 20+ years in the training environment, with several years as Ground Instructor on Aerodynamics.
I take the liberty to post here, knowing full well that my statements will not go over well with everyone, but again, I like to point out that my provocative style is caused more by my desire to get explanations to certain double standards we have in our training environment.
If someone feels insulted or attacked by that - oh well.

My points are at large directed at those instructors not posting, reading or caring. I don't really believe you find too many of these guys here.

Your style leaves me in envy. You will make a great instructor.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

maybe its just me, but I dont think I ever had even the worst student of mine put me in anything more slightly uncoordinated stall where a wing would really drop

In my case, it was a very =good= student that managed to put us into a spin.