Speed increase then vector for spacing

boondr said:
That is the one thing gives comfort about a computer taking my place. If it weren't going to be a dangerous thing I would give a weeks pay to see a computer go down the tubes as aircraft are deviating all over the place on the downwind for final.
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perfect example this morning, ILS 4 at LGA weather right over the Localizer. A/C deviating all over the place, we've got about 3 miles on either side of the LOC to vector before you whack a Kennedy or Sewark arrival. There are too many variables in trying to compute how to deal with it. Each situation is different and there is 0% chance that a computer will be able to do this..
 
Cheezypoof said:
If traffic management "shuffles" the order of aircraft... someone else who is working an aircraft with a perfectly reasonable time, and most likely already spaced... just gained or lost minutes and has to react to that.
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TMU is often guilty of causing these kinds of problems. A plane will have 4 minutes on it when we take the handoff, we'll slap a speed on and vector all over, then all of a sudden TMU calls the sup to say they're going to "ripple the list." Now your plane is 2 minutes behind.
 
Cheezypoof said:
Both, the southbound DTW departure sector which is above toledo 110 - FL230, then above that 240-300. sometimes they are combined.
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Ah nice. I'm sure we've probably talked to each other before. I'm usually in King Air 0HG, sometimes in King Air 5SC and sometimes in Pilatus 1PB all coming out of TOL.
 
N519AT said:
Ah nice. I'm sure we've probably talked to each other before. I'm usually in King Air 0HG, sometimes in King Air 5SC and sometimes in Pilatus 1PB all coming out of TOL.
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Tell me you don't call yourself "5 Sugah Charlie" because if you do I am pretty sure dasleben is going send you some hate mail via PM.




Edit: it may be "5 sugah pop" , das will let us know I am pretty sure he has that guy #1 on his people to kill list.
 
Doug, I promise it wasn't me...

Heres a traffic scenario a very plausible explanation of what might have happened to you.

I want to stress this is an example, every single situation is different, and it very well could be a bunch of different reasons, everything from new calls from the TMU, to simply the controllers plan just didn't work out the way they planned.

Here's the scenario... four airplanes all landing at "Former President International"... We get a heads up with little notice from them TMU that they need 15NM in-trail spacing at FIXXA regardless of altitude.

All four airplanes are going to meet over FIXXA Intersection within roughly the same time.

Here's the lineup to START:

Lead aircraft is a B757 flying M.78, 3 miles behind is is a B767 flying M.80, 3-4 miles back is a B777 flying M.84 followed by a B747 flying M.86.

General rule if able is let the fast guys go fast, the slow guys to the back unless its overly restricted. If we don't it just leaves the next guy screwed, you can't slow a 747 down enough behind a 757 which would just make it a huge mess down the line.

So let's assume for a moment you're the 767, at the flight planned speeds you're going to fall in third but only 4 miles behind the 777, and 3 miles ahead of the 757, (757 taking up the rear)

So here's the fix (Assume we need 15 NM intrail spacing regardless of altitude)

B747, keep pedalling fast he's going to pass everyone.
B777 reduce to a M.82 until roughly FIXXA to acomplish the required 15NM spacing behind the 747 by FIXXA, no vectors
B767 Increase to a M.82 to pass the 757 traffic to get 15NM by FIXXA.
B757... 90 degree vector to course Locked down at M.78 or less
B767 Again, after the 757 60-70 degree vector until you've got enough space with the 777 turn them back direct FIXXA, followed by the 757

Trying to slow down a 777 behind a 767/757 doesn't work, never will... I know this doesn't make any sense, but a 777 flying M.82 will always be faster than a 767 flying M.82, it's just a weird fact, I can't explain it, but we see it every day. In other words, it's just a lot easier to let the bigger guys blast through...
(If the upper level winds are wacky you can expect to get shuffled with everyone else to a close flight level so that wind speeds don't destroy the plan, I've seen an aircraft at FL380 doing M.80 passing an airplane at FL320 doing M.85, which makes it nearly impossible to utilize speed control unless you get them at the same or very close flight levels.)



**DISCLAIMER** I made this scenario up in my head, and at 1AM it makes sense... so please don't pick the math completely to pieces but hopefully you can see where I'm going with it.

Make Sense?? Probably not since it barely makese sense to me, so I broke out my artistic attempts despite my inability to draw a straight line... this is a horrible representation, but maybe it helps...

vectoring2.jpg
[/IMG]
 
Here's some more possible explanations I've seen that could explain it.

1.) Spacing is in effect over southern arrival routes, after plan for your spacing is in place, TMU advises the north arrival routes are closed, controller now has to accomodate the other aircraft into your flow.

2.)"The angle" Two airplanes are at the same flight level, flying the same mach speed... one is approaching FIXXA from FIXXB, the other airplane from FIXXC... now that means one airplane is approaching FIXXA on a heading of 240, the other on a heading of 260... just 20 degress right? Well as you know the high-level winds especially skirting the edge of the jet can be quite wild... sometimes 30-40 knots difference in groundspeed becomes apparent as one plane crosses the jet at a different angle, thus the last minute vector to re-establish the required in-trail spacing with preceeding aircraft.

3.)TMU advises required 15NM spacing increased to 20NM

All examples, there is a plethora of other minutia which could be the real cause, hope it explains some of it!
 
boondr said:
Tell me you don't call yourself "5 Sugah Charlie" because if you do I am pretty sure dasleben is going send you some hate mail via PM.




Edit: it may be "5 sugah pop" , das will let us know I am pretty sure he has that guy #1 on his people to kill list.
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Nope not at all. It's Sugah pop I believe. Those are only partial callsigns anyway!
 
N519AT said:
Ah nice. I'm sure we've probably talked to each other before. I'm usually in King Air 0HG, sometimes in King Air 5SC and sometimes in Pilatus 1PB all coming out of TOL.
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I'll look out for those, I've probably worked all of them numerous times, but Pilatus 1PB sounds familiar. I always remember Citation 2426 and 2428 out of TOL though because that's just too easy.
 
Pilotforhire587 said:
lol



And thanks for all the answers guys. Hey Barty, what Memphis Center areas do you work. Next time I am back down there visiting friends and family I will have to shoot you a call.
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North area. More specifically, the area to the north-east of Memphis to as far east as Ft Campbell, KY.
 
canadian_atc said:
Doug, I promise it wasn't me...

Heres a traffic scenario a very plausible explanation of what might have happened to you.

I want to stress this is an example, every single situation is different, and it very well could be a bunch of different reasons, everything from new calls from the TMU, to simply the controllers plan just didn't work out the way they planned.

Here's the scenario... four airplanes all landing at "Former President International"... We get a heads up with little notice from them TMU that they need 15NM in-trail spacing at FIXXA regardless of altitude.

All four airplanes are going to meet over FIXXA Intersection within roughly the same time.

Here's the lineup to START:

Lead aircraft is a B757 flying M.78, 3 miles behind is is a B767 flying M.80, 3-4 miles back is a B777 flying M.84 followed by a B747 flying M.86.

General rule if able is let the fast guys go fast, the slow guys to the back unless its overly restricted. If we don't it just leaves the next guy screwed, you can't slow a 747 down enough behind a 757 which would just make it a huge mess down the line.

So let's assume for a moment you're the 767, at the flight planned speeds you're going to fall in third but only 4 miles behind the 777, and 3 miles ahead of the 757, (757 taking up the rear)

So here's the fix (Assume we need 15 NM intrail spacing regardless of altitude)

B747, keep pedalling fast he's going to pass everyone.
B777 reduce to a M.82 until roughly FIXXA to acomplish the required 15NM spacing behind the 747 by FIXXA, no vectors
B767 Increase to a M.82 to pass the 757 traffic to get 15NM by FIXXA.
B757... 90 degree vector to course Locked down at M.78 or less
B767 Again, after the 757 60-70 degree vector until you've got enough space with the 777 turn them back direct FIXXA, followed by the 757

Trying to slow down a 777 behind a 767/757 doesn't work, never will... I know this doesn't make any sense, but a 777 flying M.82 will always be faster than a 767 flying M.82, it's just a weird fact, I can't explain it, but we see it every day. In other words, it's just a lot easier to let the bigger guys blast through...
(If the upper level winds are wacky you can expect to get shuffled with everyone else to a close flight level so that wind speeds don't destroy the plan, I've seen an aircraft at FL380 doing M.80 passing an airplane at FL320 doing M.85, which makes it nearly impossible to utilize speed control unless you get them at the same or very close flight levels.)



**DISCLAIMER** I made this scenario up in my head, and at 1AM it makes sense... so please don't pick the math completely to pieces but hopefully you can see where I'm going with it.

Make Sense?? Probably not since it barely makese sense to me, so I broke out my artistic attempts despite my inability to draw a straight line... this is a horrible representation, but maybe it helps...

vectoring2.jpg
[/IMG]
Click to expand...

Wow, is that what you guys actually have to do at work? Because here I always thought all you guys were trained on was saying, "Unable direct," "Say again, I was on the land line," and "You guys need to flip the switch a little faster!"

:)
 
I've said many times

"these guys must think I'm just screwing with them"

Only true half the time ;)
 
"Unable Direct, turn left heading zero nine zero for penalty vectors" jk radar controllers don't do that.
 
canadian_atc said:
vectoring2.jpg
[/IMG]
Click to expand...

We came up with something very similar to this once while doing shots and playing Hangman. :buck:




Seriously, though... it's a very good rendition. Also, this is spot on:

Trying to slow down a 777 behind a 767/757 doesn't work, never will... I know this doesn't make any sense, but a 777 flying M.82 will always be faster than a 767 flying M.82, it's just a weird fact, I can't explain it, but we see it every day. In other words, it's just a lot easier to let the bigger guys blast through...
(If the upper level winds are wacky you can expect to get shuffled with everyone else to a close flight level so that wind speeds don't destroy the plan, I've seen an aircraft at FL380 doing M.80 passing an airplane at FL320 doing M.85, which makes it nearly impossible to utilize speed control unless you get them at the same or very close flight levels.)
Click to expand...

As is this:

...as you know the high-level winds especially skirting the edge of the jet can be quite wild... sometimes 30-40 knots difference in groundspeed becomes apparent as one plane crosses the jet at a different angle, thus the last minute vector to re-establish the required in-trail spacing with preceeding aircraft.
Click to expand...
 
canadian_atc said:
Trying to slow down a 777 behind a 767/757 doesn't work, never will... I know this doesn't make any sense, but a 777 flying M.82 will always be faster than a 767 flying M.82, it's just a weird fact, I can't explain it, but we see it every day.
Click to expand...

You're right- it doesn't make sense. Maybe the 777 guys are just lying to you ;-)
 
dasleben said:
By the way, who's the [feminine hygiene product] canoe doing M0.78 in a 757?
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You'd be surpised, I'd say the majority of the 757 mainline carriers I deal with fly below .80 on a semi-regular basis at least.

That being said, the only time I notice is when we're doing speed control... generally its just assumed the 767 is going faster than the 757...

Then sometimes there's some superhero flying his Kingair at FL350 grounding 190 knots, complaining about turbulence as the 747 passes him 1000' above at 480 knots
 
Chief Captain said:
You're right- it doesn't make sense. Maybe the 777 guys are just lying to you ;-)
Click to expand...

Wait a second... a pilot would lie to ATC? I can't possibly believe that!

Same as when I ask a pilot if they're able FL370, they say no not for 2 hours, I hand them off to a female controller with a sweet voice all of a sudden they're able FL600 and Mach 2
 
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