Southwest pilot arrested in SAV

CFIT99 said:
I'm not saying that he is...but the mind of an alcoholic doesn't think that way, it's literally a disease that is telling him that to survive he needs to do this (I'm generalizing greatly but the point is still there)
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pwttogfk said:
The whole “system” needs to be scrapped and rebuilt. One of the first steps needs to be taking Aeromedical out of the criminal justice system. Get convicted of DUI and you’re done as a professional pilot. It’s not that hard to not drink and drive to protect a multi-million dollar career. Arrests being reported for the Aeromedical division to retry themselves isn’t okay. I’m just as likely to be pulled over by a cop on a power trip than anyone else, but I’m also confident enough in the criminal justice system (despite it still being extremely imperfect and in need of reform) to think that not drinking and driving is a pretty good way to avoid a DUI conviction. Only one of these should be a career-ending event.
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derg said:
You really can’t refuse a test without the Feds getting involved. Whether it’s in the jetway or on the side of I-5.

Alcoholism is fickle. He may have been legally drunk, but may not have actually felt drunk.

Years ago, when I was a much, much heavier and consistent drinker, I’d feel fine in the morning but knew if I got in the car and got pulled over, I probably could have easily passed a field sobriety check (which is used to determine probable cause) but would most likely exceed the BAC limit during a blood draw. The classic moniker of “I can hold my liquor”

If he had “Alcohol Dependence” chances are that he had been drinking, finally felt that he should stop because he was approaching the legal time limit, but his BAC may have been so high that there was no way he’d be under near the 0.04 BAC FAA limit or his employer’s probable “no traceable amount” rule like a lot of us have. The thing with “dependence” is that the levels that would absolutely leave the average person blotto and passed-out on a park bench may feel like a mild buzz. But, at some point north of there, JENGAAAAA!

Or, as he’s gotten older, his body doesn’t metabolize alcohol the way it used to because of something physiological.

But I don’t know, after seeing what I’ve seen, I won’t judge, but I hope he has a circle of good friends and/or supportive family to get him through the next steps to recovery.
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CFIT99 said:
Nothing you’re saying a disagree with BUT

Missing a huge point…you’re assuming that him losing his career, putting lives at danger, or anything bad happening was a factor in his decision making.

The disease told him, you won’t feel good till you do this and will convince him to justify it for any reason …everything else isn’t just a factor …it doesn’t exist.

This isn’t justification for him to get back in the seat after his treatment, additionally he should be reprimanded to the fullest.

But to assume he chose directly to ignore his role has Captain and mover of people, isn’t being honest for what his motivation is.

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That being said if he was just on a bender or having a bad week…none of the above applies.
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Please stop justifying these people. “It was the disease telling him to do it.” Is a cop out from personal responsibility. It’s people like this why we get so many dead in DUI/DWI traffic accidents. Screw em, jail him. Everyone knows HIMS exists. He had plenty of opportunities before that night in JAX to go get it done.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Please stop justifying these people. “It was the disease telling him to do it.” Is a cop out from personal responsibility. It’s people like this why we get so many dead in DUI/DWI traffic accidents. Screw em, jail him. Everyone knows HIMS exists. He had plenty of opportunities before that night in JAX to go get it done.
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Please step back from the conversation if you're going to broadly make bombastic statements without any experience dealing with the issue.

There are people on JC that have received help for addiction and those that are watching wondering if it's time for them to get help or at least accept they have a problem.

You're potentially making things harder for good people that have been helped or that may seek help.
 
I, uh, have a stock stumpjumper hardtail in storage in Juneau.

And a langster street bicycle.

IDK, you guys have more $$$ in bicycles than I have in cars. (not quite true I guess) I have been agonizing over whether I can afford to spend $1000 to get wheels built for my langster.

Definitely different worlds. ^_^
 
🦈💜 said:
I, uh, have a stock stumpjumper hardtail in storage in Juneau.

And a langster street bicycle.

IDK, you guys have more $$$ in bicycles than I have in cars. (not quite true I guess) I have been agonizing over whether I can afford to spend $1000 to get wheels built for my langster.

Definitely different worlds. ^_^
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I picked up the Norco from Bryn for 2K. There are hella deals on used bikes right now. The market is practically dead for mountain bikes.
 
BEEF SUPREME said:
I picked up the Norco from Bryn for 2K. There are hella deals on used bikes right now. The market is practically dead for mountain bikes.
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My last FO picked up a Gen 3 Turbo Levo Expert for less than I purchased my G2 Levo SL comp carbon. But I love that thing. All electrics off, it's just a slightly heavier "stumpy"

Its almost riding season again! :)
 
Richman said:
These last few messages scream “Hi! I’m out on disability and….”
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Interesting how it has gone full circle; 737 pilot -> no longer a 737 pilot -> bicycles, a different mode of transportation -> Wright Brothers. Yet still sort of on topic.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Please stop justifying these people. “It was the disease telling him to do it.” Is a cop out from personal responsibility. It’s people like this why we get so many dead in DUI/DWI traffic accidents. Screw em, jail him. Everyone knows HIMS exists. He had plenty of opportunities before that night in JAX to go get it done.
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Agree with you a bit. At some point in the chain, there has to be some personal accountability. I don't like removing the individual from any blame by saying some outside force made him do it. Maybe for this individual, it was 10 years ago.
 
derg said:
My last FO picked up a Gen 3 Turbo Levo Expert for less than I purchased my G2 Levo SL comp carbon. But I love that thing. All electrics off, it's just a slightly heavier "stumpy"

Its almost riding season again! :)
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I just packed up my home and left for, I don't know, a while? Only thing I miss are the bikes. Will be the first thing I buy in the new town.
 
Kingairer said:
Agree with you a bit. At some point in the chain, there has to be some personal accountability. I don't like removing the individual from any blame by saying some outside force made him do it. Maybe for this individual, it was 10 years ago.
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I don't think the two things have to be mutually exclusive. I think we can say "man that really sucks and I feel terrible/embarrassed/sorry for the guy, and I also think he should serve his time like anyone else". Like others have said, the intent of HIMS is to prevent this sort of thing from happening earlier in the cycle. When he was on that jet bridge, it was too late. Granted there are stories about folks (like Lyle Prouse) clawing their way back through years of work and probably equal parts shame. I guess that part is what some are getting upset about? I'd feel comfortable with a trained professional who is under the controls of HIMS, piloting my aircraft. I don't think there is any good way to cheat through that program and continue drinking. Though maybe I am ignorant of the process?
 
///AMG said:
I don't think the two things have to be mutually exclusive. I think we can say "man that really sucks and I feel terrible/embarrassed/sorry for the guy, and I also think he should serve his time like anyone else". Like others have said, the intent of HIMS is to prevent this sort of thing from happening earlier in the cycle. When he was on that jet bridge, it was too late. Granted there are stories about folks (like Lyle Prouse) clawing their way back through years of work and probably equal parts shame. I guess that part is what some are getting upset about? I'd feel comfortable with a trained professional who is under the controls of HIMS, piloting my aircraft. I don't think there is any good way to cheat through that program and continue drinking. Though maybe I am ignorant of the process?
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It’s just hit “close to home” so many times, I’m a big believer in offer help FIRST, judge later because I don’t always have the information or understand the circumstances.

I figure the ‘You’re an ass, you should go to jail for the rest of your life” (dramatized of course) isn’t going to drive people to seek help, just drive whatever is going on deeper underground AWAY from the help they should be seeking.

I’m a big believer in pulling the shame out of psychology, having friends and family you can speak freely with and maybe one of them sees an anomaly that may need talking about. I mean, we did this all through COVID with the Zoom chat, it was healthy and a lot of us got a lot of sh— worked out on a number of angles.

I don’t know, if anyone reading this wants to talk some stuff out, shoot me a PM, I’ll give you my number and at the end of the day, I may not have answers but you at least have an ear. I know a lot of you guys helped me through some dark days and I’m more than happy to return the favor.
 
Different mechanism or I guess illness, but I have known far too many folks to end their lives at a young age, while wearing the (military) uniform. I'm sure the numbers aren't vastly different in 121 flying. AS 1282 lost its door the night before I non-rev'd to VA Beach to attend the funeral of probably my biggest mentor of my career, after he had put a bullet in his head the previous Monday. That was a long SEA-DCA J/S ride. Anyway, common theme. Folks who need help who are afraid to seek it out for fear of career implications. Between him, half a dozen others, and a quadruple murder-suicide committed by a friend (against other friends), I don't think I know as many people killed in straight up aviation mishaps, as I do that.
 
And to be clear, I don't view that as weakness, at least in the instance of my friend and mentor. Guy was a US Naval Academy grad where he started in rugby and rowed. Graduate of the TOPGUN course, and served as a TOPGUN staff instructor after that, just prior to entering my life. He was my bunk mate for 11 months on my first deployment, but most importantly was the training officer.......an all important job in an operational squadron, something like a 121 director of training (in terms of job description only) on a much more personal level, who mentors and guys look up to. I remember this guy, from Long Island NY originally, showing up that first day with a low fade blowout looking like he's on the cast of Jersey Shore. We all wondered what the F was his deal. Turned out his deal was spending as many hours a day as needed to answer our questions, fly with us, instruct, and make us better. There are about 10 of us right now who were all of his dudes, at various leadership levels in the Navy, Navy reserves, and (transitioned to the) Air Force reserves, who would consider him our role model. We had a sit down meeting with the head admiral in charge of all of naval aviation, and one of those dudes sitting right next to me asked the 3 star "what the FU**K are we doing about Dorothy.......sir?". That admiral had been our air wing commander 10 years earlier, in this same time frame, so he knew us, and knew my friend too. That took some balls. Maybe balls I didn't have. In the intervening years, Doug did the standard career path, successfully serving as a placement officer (the guy who writes orders), department head in a squadron, and eventually a successful squadron CO tour leading his guys into eastern Europe flying routine Combat Air Patrol (CAP) at the start of the Ukraine war. He finished his command tour, and was in another "on-track" assignment when he decided it was time to end things. I'll never know what led him to that decision. Another one of our bros did the same thing about 6 months prior, and we had all talked about it on our chat previously, him included, and I thought we were all on the same page of "if anyone is ever feeling like this, reach out". I guess he didn't mean it.
 
CFIT99 said:
I'm not saying that he is...but the mind of an alcoholic doesn't think that way, it's literally a disease that is telling him that to survive he needs to do this (I'm generalizing greatly but the point is still there)
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Actually... more often then not additions (vices) are a result of trauma and self-medicating to distract and avoid dealing with the elephant in the room. That's not to say that sometimes, it's not a genetic component. But with pilots not able to openly seek help with their issues, for fear of losing their job. Mixed with the control freak, type A personalities. There's often A LOT of associated, self-medicating going on.
 
derg said:
My last FO picked up a Gen 3 Turbo Levo Expert for less than I purchased my G2 Levo SL comp carbon. But I love that thing. All electrics off, it's just a slightly heavier "stumpy"

Its almost riding season again! :)
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Where do you ride at, Derglas?

I hit up Hawes pretty often as I live about 10 minutes away from it. I need to diversify a bit.
 
Maximilian_Jenius said:
Actually... more often then not additions (vices) are a result of trauma and self-medicating to distract and avoid dealing with the elephant in the room. That's not to say that sometimes, it's not a genetic component. But with pilots not able to openly seek help with their issues, for fear of losing their job. Mixed with the control freak, type A personalities. There's often A LOT of associated, self-medicating going on.
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I never mentioned genetic...everything you explained is a form of alcoholism, different motivations, different reasons, same result.
 
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