SoCal Collision 1/9/2022

[guywhoflies]

The movie One Six Right covers this subject, well airport closures and urban sprawling, with VNY is the focal point. Don’t worry about the loss of tax revenue, because the airport will be bulldozed and built over - it will become a new housing development or a commercial site and they’ll get the tax revenue back one way or another.

SMO will face the same fate, HTO is probably not far behind, same for RHV. At RHV they’re trying to starve the airport of fuel citing environmental concerns, but the loss of aviation commerce benefits who? You’ll find that this is the same formula across the country: A developer wants the land using environmental concerns and or cutting of fuel sales is just the mechanism to close it.

Think of Caddy Shack, Rodney Dangerfield wants the golf course so he can build condos on it.

Fun fact; the only new public airport built since 9/11 is in Panama City, FL (KECP).

Way less fun fact; the reason ECP ended up in the middle of a swamp is because the company, St. Joe, that owned the land all around it, donated it. Their plan was to develop an obscene amount of undisturbed natural land with the airport as the anchor. Luckily, the recession delayed those plans but its only a matter of time before Panama City Beach grows all the way out to the airport. Also, ECP was supposed to have 2 runways, but the recession squashed those plans as well.

 

[mwflyer]

VNY fuel costs as well, some owners would have an unpleasant ding to their budget.
To get cheaper 100LL at VNY you are self serve if I remember correctly, been a few years since I worked outta there.

The self serve is at a location called “the park.” Waaaay off the beaten path.

 

[SteveC]

Yes. KVNY isn't going anywhere regardless of people complaining. That's where the money is. KWHP is in a mixed industrial/housing area in a "bad" area. Imagine living next to a concrete plant. But the money has no stake in it, their airplanes aren't there, they don't even know it exists so they're not likely to speak out. This isn't Michigan. So the squeaky wheel will get a lot of media attention, and it helps their cause to be viewed as poor and victimized by airplanes falling out of the sky. So in this particular instance the squeaky wheel might shut down that airport after they decided to rent an apartment nearby, the valley has tens of thousands of apartment buildings and small homes for rent but they chose to move next to an airport thats been there for more than half a century. I hate them.

I can see where, in this particular case, the money-influencers don't care enough to over-ride the unwashed squeaky wheels. That doesn't necessarily equate to a blanket statement that:

...at least in LA the squeaky wheel always gets the grease, oftentimes with unintended consequences.

...does it?

 

[CFI A&P]

Way less fun fact; the reason ECP ended up in the middle of a swamp is because the company, St. Joe, that owned the land all around it, donated it. Their plan was to develop an obscene amount of undisturbed natural land with the airport as the anchor. Luckily, the recession delayed those plans but its only a matter of time before Panama City Beach grows all the way out to the airport. Also, ECP was supposed to have 2 runways, but the recession squashed those plans as well.

Interesting details about the land acquisition. Funny how history repeats itself, the old PCB airport was getting suffocated by development and neighborhood noise complaints, so a new airport location is needed. A new airport is built ten miles away, and twenty years from now - it’ll be surrounded by development and Karen’s complaining about noise.

 

[knot4u]

The self serve is at a location called “the park.” Waaaay off the beaten path.

That whole area was a National Guard base, it is off the "beaten path" if you're looking for cheap fuel. Something needed to be done with that land after the Guard left, the buildings were literally falling down. The only reason KVNY has that long runway and the Sherman Way tunnel is because of the Guard and their F-86s and C-97s, your grandparents tax dollars at work. There used to be a portion of the NE corner of the airport with t-hangars and mainly GA stuff. The Jet Center was there and the fire station was also (the fire station is still there, Station 90, but they're not the first responders for the airport anymore). I can remember sitting outside of the hangar I was working in and seeing a t-hangar cross the runways with an escort, I was a bit fatigued and after I'd rubbed my eyes it was gone so I figured it was probably time to call it a day and go home. But I saw a couple more times and I wasn't alone. They had hired someone to rig up a truck that would pick up the hangars and move them to the NW side of the airport without disassembling them. A very strange sight to see a hangar driving around.

 

[knot4u]

I can see where, in this particular case, the money-influencers don't care enough to over-ride the unwashed squeaky wheels. That doesn't necessarily equate to a blanket statement that:



...does it?

Big money is not very noisy, they supply the grease and if they don't the politicians start making noise.

 

[MikeD]

Frankly I’m surprised that airports in the greater LA area like HHR, CCB, RIR, RAL, AJO, EMT, have stayed open this long and aren’t in danger of closing. If only for commercial or residential development; as mentioned already, they’d be far more deep pocket tax base to collect than the airports are.

So far as VNY, it went downhill when the “Hollywood Guard” ANG C-130s left.

Also the same downhill when Santini Air FBO closed down and Dominick sold the hangar….

 

[fholbert]

That whole area was a National Guard base, it is off the "beaten path" if you're looking for cheap fuel. Something needed to be done with that land after the Guard left, the buildings were literally falling down. The only reason KVNY has that long runway and the Sherman Way tunnel is because of the Guard and their F-86s and C-97s, your grandparents tax dollars at work. There used to be a portion of the NE corner of the airport with t-hangars and mainly GA stuff. The Jet Center was there and the fire station was also (the fire station is still there, Station 90, but they're not the first responders for the airport anymore). I can remember sitting outside of the hangar I was working in and seeing a t-hangar cross the runways with an escort, I was a bit fatigued and after I'd rubbed my eyes it was gone so I figured it was probably time to call it a day and go home. But I saw a couple more times and I wasn't alone. They had hired someone to rig up a truck that would pick up the hangars and move them to the NW side of the airport without disassembling them. A very strange sight to see a hangar driving around.

I can’t imagine going to Whiteman for cheap fuel when nearby Santa Paula is a lot cheaper, $4.72 vs $5.10 today.

Many airports in the US are a result of the military, WWII was the best thing that ever happened to GA. When military bases are retired they are often sold to local government for $1. Most of the public owned airports in SoCal were built by the military.

You didn’t see t-hangars being moved intact, those were port-a-ports. Like the name says they are made to be moved semi intact. Chino recently got some port-a-ports from Bracket. You’ll sometimes see trailer hitches still attached to port-a-ports.

 

[fholbert]

Are you sure? I was told it had closed and oddly enough I was looking at it on Google Earth the other day and there weren't any airplanes when that picture was taken. Maybe they tried to make it a private airpark?

Yes Ague Dulce is open, look at a sectional. It has been privately owned (public use) since it was built in 1959.

I’m guessing you did your own research?

 

[knot4u]

Yes Ague Dulce is open, look at a sectional. It has been privately owned (public use) since it was built in 1959.

I’m guessing you did your own research?

No, It was just something I'd heard and never followed up on, with the restaurant closed I would've had no reason to go there anyway. As far as moving those hangars around it looked like all they did was remove the doors, back what looked like an old day cab semi with a bunch of bracing attached to it and lift the hangar off the ground and get escorted by airport ops across the runways, they weren't towed. Don't tell me what I saw, and I never said they were t-hangars.

 

[KaiGywer]

Fun fact; the only new public airport built since 9/11 is in Panama City, FL (KECP).

Hmm, we've had two just in my little state. KBWW (replaced KBPP) and KXWA (replaced KISN). Both in different locations than the ones they replaced

 

[CFI A&P]

Hmm, we've had two just in my little state. KBWW (replaced KBPP) and KXWA (replaced KISN). Both in different locations than the ones they replaced

Huh, learned something new today. I was quoting something from a Flying magazine article. I’ll have to see if I can dig that up in their archives and if there was any details.

 

[Richman]

If you want to be depressed, just visit Paul’s excellent Abandoned Airports site.

Warning: Extreme time suck

Abandoned & Little-Known Airfields

 

[fholbert]

Huh, learned something new today. I was quoting something from a Flying magazine article. I’ll have to see if I can dig that up in their archives and if there was any details.

Maybe it was written in 2002?

St George Utah was new in 2011.

VFR southbound, the winds aloft were much better than expected and St George became an unplanned fuel stop. One GPS had been updated, the other one had a database a year old. Wait a minute, why am I getting a different course/distance? Pulled out a sectional (we still had those in 2011) and got my answer.

 

[NovemberEcho]

Also, ECP was supposed to have 2 runways, but the recession squashed those plans as well.

actually 3 runways, 2 parallel and a crosswind. Fun fact, I worked one of the first (but not the first) arrivals into there.

Also fun fact, the company that built it (Phoenix was the name iirc) was a local good ole boy network and had 0 experience with the type of construction involved for an airport, and screwed up the drainage so badly that the airport was being fined $1mil a day until it got fixed by the EPA.

and ECP was the last INTERNATIONAL airport built since 9/11 (or since KDEN) but not the last public airport.

 

[KaiGywer]

and ECP was the last INTERNATIONAL airport built since 9/11 (or since KDEN) but not the last public airport.

Not to keep bringing this one up, but.....

KXWA​

Williston Basin International Airport Williston, North Dakota, USA

 

[NovemberEcho]

Not to keep bringing this one up, but.....

KXWA​

Williston Basin International Airport Williston, North Dakota, USA

ha ok fair enough. My ECP info is dated 2014 cause I stopped caring after I left

 

[guywhoflies]

actually 3 runways, 2 parallel and a crosswind. Fun fact, I worked one of the first (but not the first) arrivals into there.

Also fun fact, the company that built it (Phoenix was the name iirc) was a local good ole boy network and had 0 experience with the type of construction involved for an airport, and screwed up the drainage so badly that the airport was being fined $1mil a day until it got fixed by the EPA.

and ECP was the last INTERNATIONAL airport built since 9/11 (or since KDEN) but not the last public airport.

I forgot about the drainage issues. That was a • show.

They screwed the GA community (shocking, I know) there, too. PFN had plenty of T-hangars but they only built about half as many at ECP. They held a lottery for the GA folks and those that didn't get a hangar were SOL.

 

[NovemberEcho]

I forgot about the drainage issues. That was a • show.

They screwed the GA community (shocking, I know) there, too. PFN had plenty of T-hangars but they only built about half as many at ECP. They held a lottery for the GA folks and those that didn't get a hangar were SOL.

I heard they doubled the tie down rate too. PFN used to get crazy busy and then ecp opened and 70% of our traffic moved to DTS. Hated flying out of ECP. Not because of anything wrong with the airport, just such a long boring drive from PC. But those couple of months where PFN was uncontrolled before it fully closed and ECP was open got real hairy on occasion. ECP rwy 16 departure procedure and PFN 34 pointed right at eachother and some jets were still using PFN VFR not talking to us.