KSCessnaDriver
Well-Known Member
More like, carry a parachute. It ain't hard to get out, if you really needed to
So I don't want to flight instruct...
- Thread starter rwgb1984
- Start date
More like, carry a parachute. It ain't hard to get out, if you really needed to
My story is not typical. Let's start there.
I am a new, low-time CMEL. I started networking at my Private. MANY people said, "Call me when you have your Multi", some said "Call me when you have 1500 TT", and one said "call me when you have 4000, and 1500 multi". I was 2 days complete with my CMEL and started calling those contacts. One has given me an opportunity. I am flying a Merlin. And I'm hanging onto the tail of the airplane. It's an incredibly challenging aircraft. Do I think you need 1000 dual given to be qualified to fly an airplane? Honestly, I think that's one of the most absurd things I've ever heard. (In the military, if you're qualified to do the job, you're qualified to train someone else to do it, and should be good enough at it to train your replacement)
I got into this occupation to FLY airplanes. I'm not in this to keep indecisive, uncommitted Korean, Chinese, or Mexican kids from killing me. FBO flight training is a TOUGH living. One of the biggest complaints is that there aren't enough American kids learning to fly. I see the CFI as an add-on, or "Master's" per se. I've invested almost $100,000 (and re-imbursed through the GI Bill) into my flight training. It's a better ROI, for me, to get to work now, flying a multi turbine, Part 91, and getting paid to do it while going back to get my I ratings. Being a "real world" experienced pilot AND a CFI makes me a far better instructor than doing laps in the practice area on CAVU days.
The single biggest piece of advice that I can give you is that depending on what you want to do, bring tangible assets, other than flying airplanes, to the table. Don't become just a great pilot. Become great at everything aviation related. Work at becoming an asset. The company I work for can find a competent pilot anywhere. The intangibles that you bring to the table are going to render you far more valuable than just being a great stick. Some will disagree, and tell you that being a good pilot is enough, but if you want to get into anything other than the airlines, you need to hone skills outside of the cockpit.
I am a new, low-time CMEL. I started networking at my Private. MANY people said, "Call me when you have your Multi", some said "Call me when you have 1500 TT", and one said "call me when you have 4000, and 1500 multi". I was 2 days complete with my CMEL and started calling those contacts. One has given me an opportunity. I am flying a Merlin. And I'm hanging onto the tail of the airplane. It's an incredibly challenging aircraft. Do I think you need 1000 dual given to be qualified to fly an airplane? Honestly, I think that's one of the most absurd things I've ever heard. (In the military, if you're qualified to do the job, you're qualified to train someone else to do it, and should be good enough at it to train your replacement)
I got into this occupation to FLY airplanes. I'm not in this to keep indecisive, uncommitted Korean, Chinese, or Mexican kids from killing me. FBO flight training is a TOUGH living. One of the biggest complaints is that there aren't enough American kids learning to fly. I see the CFI as an add-on, or "Master's" per se. I've invested almost $100,000 (and re-imbursed through the GI Bill) into my flight training. It's a better ROI, for me, to get to work now, flying a multi turbine, Part 91, and getting paid to do it while going back to get my I ratings. Being a "real world" experienced pilot AND a CFI makes me a far better instructor than doing laps in the practice area on CAVU days.
The single biggest piece of advice that I can give you is that depending on what you want to do, bring tangible assets, other than flying airplanes, to the table. Don't become just a great pilot. Become great at everything aviation related. Work at becoming an asset. The company I work for can find a competent pilot anywhere. The intangibles that you bring to the table are going to render you far more valuable than just being a great stick. Some will disagree, and tell you that being a good pilot is enough, but if you want to get into anything other than the airlines, you need to hone skills outside of the cockpit.
HVYMETALDRVR
Well-Known Member
Everyone is different for sure and I don't know you specifically but theres a big skill level difference between Commercial Multi Instrument with 300 hrs. and a single pilot IFR freight driver with 1200 or a full ATP. You make a lot of small mistakes along the way that usually aren't a big deal in a smaller airplane but could be a big deal in a bigger one, its all part of the process... Like doing an ILS down to minimums vs. flying under the hood. Now whats the difference between 500TT in a 172 and 1000TT in the 172? I don't know that its a big deal but 500TT in a 172 to right seat in a Lear 45, thats a pretty big learning curve and there's a good chance something bad might happen in that curve.
There is a actually a bad and little known track record that minimum time Commercial time guys have flying heavy equipment at many regionals that no one wants to talk about. No major crashes AFAIK, but lining up on the wrong runway, blown tires, damaged fuselages, cracked wing spars, lack of situational awareness in low IFR, flying the aircraft to the shaker causing the captain to take the controls, stuff like that. My friend is was a check airmen at Spirit when they hired at ERAU with minimum time, the result? I don't think Spirit will do that again.
About a 9 months ago when I was still instructing I had a cocky CFI student that did nothing but mouth off about the FAA and they're "silly" 1500 hr rule that would prevent him from going to Eagle at 400 hrs. About the only thing he could do right was taxi out to the runway and take off, I was on the controls for most of the flight... this was in a Seminole and I downright asked him, "how do you think you think you can handle an ATR or an ERJ if you can barely handle the Seminole?" response: "well its a curve right? I learn as I go when I get to the airplane."
All that said, since you have the GI Bill I'm guessing your either still in or a vet, I'm USAR myself so I know military guys often have a higher aptitude than some... But the rules are made for the lowest common denominator if you know what I mean. The best aircraft experience for transition IMO fly a 172 or Seminole till 1000-1200 hrs, then say a C-210 or Baron single pilot IFR till 2000-2500hr then right seat in a Lear or Embraer. I know you don't make the most cash that way but its probably the safest and least stressful transition.
Also theres a big difference between a CFI in Florida flying laps in the pattern in a 150, and a CFII/MEI in Minnesota flying in IMC in a C-310, dealing with wx, icing, etc.
chrisreedrules
Master Blaster
+1 except we deal with a lot more thunderstorm-dodging in our weather flying than most places I've seen. And we do get our fair share of icing conditions too. I've had icing twice down here and both times were during the summer.
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
I'm a big fan of instructing to build airmanship.
I can honestly say that being an instructor probably enhanced my airmanship and decisionmaking more than any other aspect of my flying career -- and that was after having about 700 hours of fighter time (about 1200 hours total time) and having flown in real no-kidding combat. I was a better aviator, better flight lead, better briefer and debriefer, and better CRM/communicator.
I think the problem most pilots have is being unable to see past the things they are teaching and see the airmanship they are gaining. No, 1500 hours of putting around the pattern in itself doesn't build much airmanship, but teaching others to do it sure as hell does. There is an enormous amount of collateral learning that the instructor is getting as his students think of new an innovative ways to screw things up and fly into corners of the operational envelope they've never intentionally been to before.
I can honestly say that being an instructor probably enhanced my airmanship and decisionmaking more than any other aspect of my flying career -- and that was after having about 700 hours of fighter time (about 1200 hours total time) and having flown in real no-kidding combat. I was a better aviator, better flight lead, better briefer and debriefer, and better CRM/communicator.
I think the problem most pilots have is being unable to see past the things they are teaching and see the airmanship they are gaining. No, 1500 hours of putting around the pattern in itself doesn't build much airmanship, but teaching others to do it sure as hell does. There is an enormous amount of collateral learning that the instructor is getting as his students think of new an innovative ways to screw things up and fly into corners of the operational envelope they've never intentionally been to before.
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
I say it every time this topic comes up, and I'll say it again:
Not every CFI gig just involves beating up the pattern in a 150 on CAVU days. Some CFIs actually teach in complex multi engine airplanes, at night, in IMC, and go into busy airspace. Sometimes all at the same time! And doing that with a student flying is way, way more difficult and ADM intensive than doing the same flight by yourself.
Not directed at you, BTW, but at the crowd in general.
TheFlyingTurkey
Fetus Worshiper
I recommend anyone wanting to become a professional pilot get their CFI and teach students for at least a year, the longer the better. I taught for almost 3 years.
You will learn more and gain more experience teaching than you will towing banners or flying pipelines. You'll also have to learn how to deal with different people and their personalities, very useful in multi-crew aircraft. Not to mention how much better a pilot you will become just training for the CFI. Get your CFII and MEI too.
I also believe that becoming a CFI and teaching will give you life-saving skills. Had the Captain of Colgan 3407 been a CFI, I am convinced he would have lowered the aircraft's nose rather than pulled back on the yoke causing a stall. When you practice stalls and slow flight all day long for months on end with students, you'll gain life saving skills in that kind of emergency. You won't panic, your training will take over.
You will learn more and gain more experience teaching than you will towing banners or flying pipelines. You'll also have to learn how to deal with different people and their personalities, very useful in multi-crew aircraft. Not to mention how much better a pilot you will become just training for the CFI. Get your CFII and MEI too.
I also believe that becoming a CFI and teaching will give you life-saving skills. Had the Captain of Colgan 3407 been a CFI, I am convinced he would have lowered the aircraft's nose rather than pulled back on the yoke causing a stall. When you practice stalls and slow flight all day long for months on end with students, you'll gain life saving skills in that kind of emergency. You won't panic, your training will take over.
I understand this; here's my point; An instructor coming in with 1200 hours of actual squadron flying and 100+ hours of actual combat provides a FAR more comprehensive student/IP experience than a newly minted aviator who was kept back as an IP (FAIP/ I forgot what it's called in the Navy...
)In the controlling world, once we were qualified, we were often training a new person on the position within weeks of getting qualified. The mentality was that because the knowledge was "fresh" we'd be better suited to train the newby than a more "seasoned" controller with developed "bad habits".
What's the right answer? Clearly, it's a quite subjective subject. In the interest of answering the OP's "question", I wanted to let him know that there are alternatives to CFI'ing, if done correctly. Correctly, to me, means networking extensively and adding tools to the quiver which make him more of an asset to whichever team he joins. No amount of convincing, explaining, or reasoning is going to change the opinion of the OP. At least it wouldn't with me, and that's how I'm approaching this. I may be hanging on to the tail of an airplane, at the moment, but I am doing it while flying all over the country, and into Canada. There is no possible way of me gaining this experience in a training environment. If and when I finish my I ratings, there is no doubt that I have a far greater advantage in training a new pilot than a person who has never left a training environment.
Ultimately, my hope is to convey to the OP that there ARE other routes to CFI'ing, and it's not all doom and gloom, and rocks and rolls getting started as a low time pilot.
Ash Williams
Well-Known Member
Flying the plane A to B, dealing with weather, faulty equipment, busy airspace, time/people management, etc. ----> is the easy part of "flying".
Doing all this while teaching somebody who is trying to feather the wrong engine, shut the fuel off, put in the wrong frequency, taxi the wrong way, raise the flaps all at once on a go-around, set up for the wrong runway, go below MDA, land with the brakes on, totally screw up the radio calls, etc.---> might not be for everybody. But it sure does make the 'normal' flights boring.
I mean for Pete's sake, Turn the heat OFF!
Doing all this while teaching somebody who is trying to feather the wrong engine, shut the fuel off, put in the wrong frequency, taxi the wrong way, raise the flaps all at once on a go-around, set up for the wrong runway, go below MDA, land with the brakes on, totally screw up the radio calls, etc.---> might not be for everybody. But it sure does make the 'normal' flights boring.
I mean for Pete's sake, Turn the heat OFF!
Ash Williams
Well-Known Member
IMHO
The only people that might care if you were an instructor... are other instructors.
The only people that might care if you were a freight dawg... are other freight dogs.
The only people that might care if you put the gear up and down in an RJ... are other GUB's.
The list goes on.
I second somebody else's previous comment. If you don't want to, don't.
The only people that might care if you were an instructor... are other instructors.
The only people that might care if you were a freight dawg... are other freight dogs.
The only people that might care if you put the gear up and down in an RJ... are other GUB's.
The list goes on.
I second somebody else's previous comment. If you don't want to, don't.
I tell guys that being a CFI is really your first captain experience, especially when you're teaching instruments and multi-engine.
Single pilot is good experience, but if your goal is big airplanes in a multi-crew environment, your CFI experiences will certainly help more than many of the "there I was, alone in the soup" scenarios. As a CFI, just like being in a multi-crew environment, you have to learn when to address a situation, when to observe and how to communicate effectively during complex circumstances.
But then, it really depends on what your goals are. My employer doesn't particularly like guys with substantial single-pilot experience, which I don't necessarily agree with, but I'm not writing the checks either. I don't own the airline so we can debate until the cows come home, but it won't change a thing as there are assloads of guys that match their preferred qualifications.
Single pilot is good experience, but if your goal is big airplanes in a multi-crew environment, your CFI experiences will certainly help more than many of the "there I was, alone in the soup" scenarios. As a CFI, just like being in a multi-crew environment, you have to learn when to address a situation, when to observe and how to communicate effectively during complex circumstances.
But then, it really depends on what your goals are. My employer doesn't particularly like guys with substantial single-pilot experience, which I don't necessarily agree with, but I'm not writing the checks either. I don't own the airline so we can debate until the cows come home, but it won't change a thing as there are assloads of guys that match their preferred qualifications.
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
I understand this; here's my point; An instructor coming in with 1200 hours of actual squadron flying and 100+ hours of actual combat provides a FAR more comprehensive student/IP experience than a newly minted aviator who was kept back as an IP (FAIP/ I forgot what it's called in the Navy...
Oh, without a doubt you are correct.
That being said, there actually is value having FAIPs in the mix in the military flying training environment. Students will fly with a wide variety of instructors during their time, and although the IPs are teaching off the same sheet of music, their backgrounds/experiences color how that standardized bill of goods is taught.
What is being taught in military undergraduate training (contact, navigation, aerobatics, instruments, formation, low level nav) is so basic -- for fighter guys, it amounts to about 10% of the overall skills and knowledge required to perform an operational mission -- that a FAIP can somewhat easily turn right around after a 6-month instructor school and go back and teach it. FAIPs can actually be quite effective instructors with the type of limited experience they bring to the table (about 200 hours of flying as a student, then another 69 hours in the instructor qual course). It is their position amongst a diverse group of instructors that make them valuable.
What you find is that old salty guys focus on and teach different things than FAIPs do. More experienced IPs tend to want students to understand how their actions fit into the larger context of what they will be required to do out in the operational world; FAIPs don't have this context, so they are more detail oriented with the tasks required in the training command. FAIPs care about little stuff that many saltier IPs don't care about. Experienced IPs harp on behaviors that will be important in operational flying and sometimes downplay training command-isms. FAIPs, usually being younger, are able in many ways to relate more closely to the students because of their similarity in age and recency of having been through the same training program.
The end result is that students who fly with both types of instructors are more apt to have been critiqued on their performance from a number of different aspects and been taught a number of different ways. The other end result is that those FAIPs leave their instructor tour with an infinite amount of better airmanship than their peers who are fresh out of the training pipeline -- it is a valuable experience for them as well (although there are some military-specific drawbacks to FAIPing that aren't really relevant to this particular discussion)
I am wholly for having experienced pilots as instructors. As I've posted before, I wish the civilian flying world embraced having experienced pilots as CFIs (for the benefit of the students), but in actuality we have a system of mostly FAIPs.
rwgb1984
Well-Known Member
So after reading all of the comments and opinions posted I figure that the reasons to not get the CFI (primarily the additional cost and then still wanting to keep my current job until I graduate and not work full time for a flight school.) did not out weigh the benefits of having it (airmanship, sharing knowledge, sharpening little used/rarely used skills, sharing knowledge, adding to my marketability to potential future employers, etc...).
I think I may adjust my plans to include going into a partnership on a relatively low cost airplane (probably a Cessna 140 or 170) to do instruction in as well as free lancing to individuals with their own airplanes. The partnership is just an idea as I figured it would probably be cheaper to build the time in an airplane I own (including it in the instruction cost for individuals without their own airplanes. Only thing that would really make it cost effective is if I could find someone with their CFI who also is an ATP/IA to perform the 100hrs as necessary.) I think I may be getting in over my head with that one but I have plenty of time to think about whether or not that would be a worth while decision.
In addition to part time/freelance instruction I'll probably try to do the drop zone thing on the side during the summers. Seems like it would be fun to do anyway!
Thanks again for the input guys!
I think I may adjust my plans to include going into a partnership on a relatively low cost airplane (probably a Cessna 140 or 170) to do instruction in as well as free lancing to individuals with their own airplanes. The partnership is just an idea as I figured it would probably be cheaper to build the time in an airplane I own (including it in the instruction cost for individuals without their own airplanes. Only thing that would really make it cost effective is if I could find someone with their CFI who also is an ATP/IA to perform the 100hrs as necessary.) I think I may be getting in over my head with that one but I have plenty of time to think about whether or not that would be a worth while decision.
In addition to part time/freelance instruction I'll probably try to do the drop zone thing on the side during the summers. Seems like it would be fun to do anyway!
Thanks again for the input guys!
I think you mean A&P IA not ATP/IA?
Find a local flying club that needs CFI's. Our one active CFI only does accelrated PPL and Instrument, all his flying is 4:30pm and later on weekdays and anytime on weekends and he's backed up 7 firm students right now.
He is a bit unique in that he flat rates his courses for his time. He's not looking to build hours and go anywhere (He's well above ATP mins), just enjoys flying.
With what he does, the club ends up getting students from all over the country (not many clubs have Mooney rentals and he does Mooney checkouts for folks looking to buy and needing hours for insurance). Since its $750 to join and you get $500 back when you leave, the club is getting a lot of extra $$$ at $250 per out of town one month members.
Find a local flying club that needs CFI's. Our one active CFI only does accelrated PPL and Instrument, all his flying is 4:30pm and later on weekdays and anytime on weekends and he's backed up 7 firm students right now.
He is a bit unique in that he flat rates his courses for his time. He's not looking to build hours and go anywhere (He's well above ATP mins), just enjoys flying.
With what he does, the club ends up getting students from all over the country (not many clubs have Mooney rentals and he does Mooney checkouts for folks looking to buy and needing hours for insurance). Since its $750 to join and you get $500 back when you leave, the club is getting a lot of extra $$$ at $250 per out of town one month members.
rwgb1984
Well-Known Member
There is a flying club based out of ADS that has aircraft available for rent and also has CFI's available for instruction. There are quite a few on their list (CFI's) so that may be a possibility once I get there. I definitely won't limit myself to that flying club but it was the first thing that came to mind when I read your post.
I really do like the idea of purchasing a relatively low cost airplane to also do instruction out of because it has the potential to increase the number of hours flown a month by expanding my potential market to clients outside of the flying club/air craft owners. However, the barrier to entry of course is the cost of owning/operating. Again I'll have to weight this when I am ready to cross that bridge.
ryan1234
Desensitized Member
Lots of parallels in civilian flying in regards to being taught by the old salty guys. Old or young, nothing beats having an instructor who is passionate about flying. Haven't met too many in the AD AF yet.... so far only old salty guys who seem to be the red haired step children.
So.... I shared this thread with my CFI, and he made an awesome point. Only slightly relevant here, and mostly directed towards the "you need 1000 dual given...." comment.
"Bob Hoover doesn't have a single hour of dual given, and I'd say he's a pretty darn good pilot." - My CFI (Is it true that Hoove doesn't hold a CFI?!?!)
"Bob Hoover doesn't have a single hour of dual given, and I'd say he's a pretty darn good pilot." - My CFI (Is it true that Hoove doesn't hold a CFI?!?!)
