So, how bad is your carrier melting down...

Seggy said:
That is why I said 'rest' in quotations.

Here is a real world scenario why taking the jumpseat is a no-no in the new regulations. Say you are supposed to fly JFK-LAX-SFO and then deadhead to SEA. You duty on at 0630 and have a scheduled 11 hour duty day doing the JFK-LAX-SFO flights. As you say, you are 'free' from duty sitting in the back on the deadhead going to SEA. However, you decide to 'help' the company out by taking the jumpseat due to an IROP condition. By taking the jumpseat instead of the seat in the back you are considered a cockpit crew member, which has different duties and rules by law than a deadheader in the back. Due to your duty on time and being in the cockpit for 3 legs instead of 2, you put yourself over the 12 hour FDP in that scenario. That is against the FAR. If something happens and you are sitting in the cockpit, you are toast when the NTSB starts looking back at your duty day.
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That's an interesting scenario. But I did address that point that scheduled deadheads are already accounted for and reserved ahead of time, and the seat appropriately blocked off from passenger reservations. The scenario that was being talked about was an IROP situation where you just deadhead to get to where you are going, and then maybe operate a live flight. You weren't supposed to do the deadhead but all schedules are out of whack. A DH at the beginning of a FDP still counts as FDP because you are doing live flights later.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
That's an interesting scenario. But I did address that point that scheduled deadheads are already accounted for and reserved ahead of time, and the seat appropriately blocked off from passenger reservations. The scenario that was being talked about was an IROP situation where you just deadhead to get to where you are going, and then maybe operate a live flight. You weren't supposed to do the deadhead but all schedules are out of whack. A DH at the beginning of a FDP still counts as FDP because you are doing live flights later.
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You're not deadheading and activating an FDP if you're not on your assignment yet, as far as I know.

I'd be curious to send this to the FAA or whomever, for an FAQ actual answer.

Is a commuter, whose company purchases them a seat to get to the hub so they can start their trip, deadheading and on an FDP? Or are they simply another passenger on a plane, riding somewhere like everyone else, and not on an FDP because they would have been on the same plane anyway.

My own interpretation would be, they're not on an FDP yet because they're not doing something required by the company. The company starts requiring them to do something at their base, in the form of signing in, and deadheading or flying to somewhere. Commuting into base is not something the company is requiring them to do.

I see it as someone who drives to work not being on an FDP on their drive in. And if their car broke down, and the company sent a cab to that pilot's house to get to the airport because there was nobody to fly their flight, then would the cab ride be an FDP?

My gosh, these rules are complicated.
 
@BobDDuck

Agree, however DL is more like this: DL - MCO/BOS/MSY/MIA//HNL*/ANC*/PDX/DFW/MEM/CVG(it's coming)

and we still have LAX/SNA/ONT

*FNWA
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
That's an interesting scenario. But I did address that point that scheduled deadheads are already accounted for and reserved ahead of time, and the seat appropriately blocked off from passenger reservations. The scenario that was being talked about was an IROP situation where you just deadhead to get to where you are going, and then maybe operate a live flight. You weren't supposed to do the deadhead but all schedules are out of whack. A DH at the beginning of a FDP still counts as FDP because you are doing live flights later.
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I see what you are saying. I also see what you are saying about the need to provide a good customer service experience, ESPECIALLY during these stressful travel times.

With that said, I would not take the jump seat once checked in for a pairing. The company has a seat reserved in the cabin for a reason.
 
SrFnFly227 said:
There are actually a few of us on this site in and around Virginia Beach. This place has a tendency to grow on people. What are you flying?
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Yeah we weren't sure at first how much we would like it, but it ended up being great for both the mrs and I, speaking after being here for a little over 2 years now. Much better professionally speaking for her than central CA. We miss San Diego a lot, but we don't miss pretentious and ostentatious southern Californians (not that everyone in SoCal is like that certainly). To answer your question, I fly legacy Hornets.
 
Seggy said:
I see what you are saying. I also see what you are saying about the need to provide a good customer service experience, ESPECIALLY during these stressful travel times.

With that said, I would not take the jump seat once checked in for a pairing. The company has a seat reserved in the cabin for a reason.
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Situation is an IROP when you were never suppose to DH in the first place. Suppose you have a 3-day trip with no scheduled DHs. You fly EWR-MCO and then overnight, next day suppose to come up to EWR and then DEN for the night. Massive storm/delays and cancellations, and now they call you desperately and say we'll have you DH directly from MCO to DEN for the night. Problem with that is that all your cancelled pax at MCO have been rebooked through DEN as well and the entire flight is oversold. You sitting in the J/S opens up one seat for some revenue passenger who desperately needs to get to where he is going. WWYD?
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Situation is an IROP when you were never suppose to DH in the first place. Suppose you have a 3-day trip with no scheduled DHs. You fly EWR-MCO and then overnight, next day suppose to come up to EWR and then DEN for the night. Massive storm/delays and cancellations, and now they call you desperately and say we'll have you DH directly from MCO to DEN for the night. Problem with that is that all your cancelled pax at MCO have been rebooked through DEN as well and the entire flight is oversold. You sitting in the J/S opens up one seat for some revenue passenger who desperately needs to get to where he is going. WWYD?
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Take my seat in the back because what happens if they ask me to continue flying once I am in Denver?
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Situation is an IROP when you were never suppose to DH in the first place. Suppose you have a 3-day trip with no scheduled DHs. You fly EWR-MCO and then overnight, next day suppose to come up to EWR and then DEN for the night. Massive storm/delays and cancellations, and now they call you desperately and say we'll have you DH directly from MCO to DEN for the night. Problem with that is that all your cancelled pax at MCO have been rebooked through DEN as well and the entire flight is oversold. You sitting in the J/S opens up one seat for some revenue passenger who desperately needs to get to where he is going. WWYD?
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I'm sitting in my assigned seat.

My biggest priority is arriving at my next station ready and fully rested for duty.

Did you really just ask this?
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Situation is an IROP when you were never suppose to DH in the first place. Suppose you have a 3-day trip with no scheduled DHs. You fly EWR-MCO and then overnight, next day suppose to come up to EWR and then DEN for the night. Massive storm/delays and cancellations, and now they call you desperately and say we'll have you DH directly from MCO to DEN for the night. Problem with that is that all your cancelled pax at MCO have been rebooked through DEN as well and the entire flight is oversold. You sitting in the J/S opens up one seat for some revenue passenger who desperately needs to get to where he is going. WWYD?
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At UA and the UAX carriers, gate agents were not allowed to put active duty positive space crew members in the jumpseat. I'd be shocked if any carrier allows this...
 
Seggy said:
Yes, some do.
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Who?

I don't buy the 'desperately' part of his hypothetical scenario anyway.

Everyone from the guy flying on miles to the last minute full fare passenger is 'desperately' trying to get to where they want to go. That's why they want to fly at 550mph in an aluminum tube to get there.

With that said, your primary concern is safe transportation, within company and federal policy, from Point-A to Point-B.

Here's the decision flowchart:

Safety (wouldn't be reasonably prudent to expect that the aisle/window seat I'm contracturally guaranteed is less restful than a jumpseat — DONE)

FAR, ATC, and company policy compliance

Passenger comfort

Schedule

Economy

If and when you screw something up, the FAA, your chief pilot and your union representatives will walk right down this checklist when you first sit down during your hearing. #axemehowiknowoverabeersometime
 
Derg said:
Who?

I don't buy the 'desperately' part of his hypothetical scenario anyway.

Everyone from the guy flying on miles to the last minute full fare passenger is 'desperately' trying to get to where they want to go. That's why they want to fly at 550mph in an aluminum tube to get there.

With that said, your primary concern is safe transportation, within company and federal policy, from Point-A to Point-B.

Here's the decision flowchart:

Safety (wouldn't be reasonably prudent to expect that the aisle/window seat I'm contracturally guaranteed is less restful than a jumpseat — DONE)

FAR, ATC, and company policy compliance

Passenger comfort

Schedule

Economy

If and when you screw something up, the FAA, your chief pilot and your union representatives will walk right down this checklist when you first sit down during your hearing. #axemehowiknowoverabeersometime
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Skywest does, and I've been burned by this... If the gate agent asks, they can put a deadheader in the jump. It's in skywest's "contract."
 
Derg said:
I'm sitting in my assigned seat.

My biggest priority is arriving at my next station ready and fully rested for duty.

Did you really just ask this?
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Yes I did.

Maybe I didn't make the example clear. Your original trip is:

Day 1 - EWR-MCO
Day 2 - MCO-EWR-DEN
Day 3 - DEN-ORD-EWR

Day 1 you overnight at MCO. Day 2 all hell breaks loose, and my comment applied about the DH to DEN. You get to DEN with plenty of time and rest before your Day 3 flight outbound of DEN. Assume your priority of arriving ready and fully rested still happens because all you have on day 2 is the DH from MCO to DEN and straight to the hotel. You will do your Day 3 flight the next day as planned.

Seggy, same with your scenario. You are done in DEN because they need you to fly the DEN leg outbound the next day.
 
And come on, lets be honest, plenty of pilots commute in a jumpseat across the country just to turn around and fly a full day. I have to think, you do realize that commuting to work and flying same day is just the same that you are arguing against, yes?
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Yes I did.

Maybe I didn't make the example clear. Your original trip is:

Day 1 - EWR-MCO
Day 2 - MCO-EWR-DEN
Day 3 - DEN-ORD-EWR

Day 1 you overnight at MCO. Day 2 all hell breaks loose, and my comment applied about the DH to DEN. You get to DEN with plenty of time and rest before your Day 3 flight outbound of DEN. Assume your priority of arriving ready and fully rested still happens because all you have on day 2 is the DH from MCO to DEN and straight to the hotel. You will do your Day 3 flight the next day as planned.

Seggy, same with your scenario. You are done in DEN because they need you to fly the DEN leg outbound the next day.
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It doesn't change my answer at all.

Here's the trick, when you start using the cockpit seat as a rest seat, a deadhead seat, etc, it sets an unprofessional precedent and the very next person that arrives at the airport to deadhead will have a gate agent presume he's going to take it, in a much different circumstance.

That's my final answer and we're not going to play "Dr Seuss: Green Eggs and Ham" with hypotheticals until you receive the answer you are looking for. Ain't nobody got time FO dat.
 
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