slowing without advising

NovemberEcho

Dergs favorite member
Ok pilots, I got a question for you (esp those of you at 2 certain airlines that I won't mention). When you are in busy airspace, say coming into one of the NY airports, why do some of you slow from 250kts to 210 or less before you are given a speed assignment, and why do so many of you not bother to tell the controller that you want/need to/are slowing? Do you not realize that you have planes behind you still doing 250kts? Do you not realize I may need you to keep your speed in order to hit the gap and for my sequence to work? And additionally, if I give you a speed to keep to the FAF, please do NOT slow before the FAF!
 
We love specifics. If you need a particular speed go ahead and assign it.

The localisms in places like JFK where it's "250 until I say slow" aren't universal, especially when you have a blend of domestic traffic where it's last assigned speed until advised with international traffic where they're going to fly the ICAO speed profile because, for the most part, everyone else around the world does except us.

If we're cleared for the visual with a speed assignment, that's cool, but if we're creeping up to traffic three miles ahead with a decent closure rate, ehh… we're going to slow and maintain visual separation because we're supposed to.
 
This happens all the time going into TEB. Generally flap speeds for corporate aircraft start at 200 knots. A clean aircraft takes a while to slow from 250 to 200. I'm sure it is the same for the real jets that real men like @Derg fly ;)

If you want me to do something. Please just ask. Say maintain 250 until XYZ or give me some indication of what you want. I really have no idea how to do ATC's job and frankly I wouldn't want it. I would definitely screw it all up big time. I have nothing but respect for ATC and if you ask me something you will get it.

Wait a second I have this conversation with my fiancé and my boss all the time. WHAT PART OF I'M NOT A MIND READER DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND! ;)
 
Somewhat related, but you may not handle us. I fly the slow Dash 8s, and on a good day, we can give you 220-230 max forward speed. Do you prefer to slow down the guys behind us, or send them over top of us with an overtake of 20-30 knots? I see both all the time, is it just personal preference? Also, if given a descent and asked for max forward speed, I can do 240 knots (barberpole), if you let me do a slow 500-700fpm descent. I usually let the controller know if you let me descend at 500fpm in all the way, I can give you 240 knots, but usually they want the descent first. Personal preference again?
 
Might be instructors from the era of the high drag coefficient 727's and DC-9's teaching students that will work in an era of hyper "slick" aerodynamically efficient Airbii, newer generation Boeings, et al.

Personally, I'd rather adopt and train to ICAO speeds and then deviate by exception.

I'll generally buzz around at 250, but once I'm inbound 210-ish at 8 miles out 170-180 at 5 miles out and you'll pretty much be configured and stabilized between 1000 to 1200 AFE (very roughly).
 
Do you prefer to slow down the guys behind us, or send them over top of us with an overtake of 20-30 knots? I see both all the time, is it just personal preference?

At ATL it was based on how far from the downwind turn you were as to whether I could blow by you or not. 30-40nm out, no problem, closer than that, too much work.
 
Let's put it this way. If you leave a mad dog high and fast abeam the numbers:
Screen Shot 2016-01-07 at 1558.33.png


Any other more modern airliner that was designed in the 80's (roughly):

Screen Shot 2016-01-07 at 1600.51.png
 
Ok pilots, I got a question for you (esp those of you at 2 certain airlines that I won't mention). When you are in busy airspace, say coming into one of the NY airports, why do some of you slow from 250kts to 210 or less before you are given a speed assignment, and why do so many of you not bother to tell the controller that you want/need to/are slowing? Do you not realize that you have planes behind you still doing 250kts? Do you not realize I may need you to keep your speed in order to hit the gap and for my sequence to work? And additionally, if I give you a speed to keep to the FAF, please do NOT slow before the FAF!

Were they ever assigned a speed of 250? If they weren't, some pilots will start getting the plane configured farther out than others. They're not saying they're slowing down because you can see their speed on the radar and assume slowing must not affect anyone else. Probably thinking the airplane behind them is going to a different airport/runway/you've already got another plan worked out.
If it's something you need, tell the pilot.
 
If you need a speed, assign the speed.

We all have those "you've got to be kidding me" moments. Like an AA Airbi slowing to 180kts GS 20 flying miles from the airport (I'm sure winds aloft were selectively harassing only this airplane...or something). But it's our (ATC) fault if we never assigned a speed.
 
If you need a speed, assign the speed.

We all have those "you've got to be kidding me" moments. Like an AA Airbi slowing to 180kts GS 20 flying miles from the airport (I'm sure winds aloft were selectively harassing only this airplane...or something). But it's our (ATC) fault if we never assigned a speed.

I agree with 99% of this but I want to know what the thought process is when I'm clearly busy, number one is direct the marker and pulls back to 180 25 miles out.

I LUV that.

Say speed?
180 Whadda you need?
A right 360.
 
Somewhat related, but you may not handle us. I fly the slow Dash 8s, and on a good day, we can give you 220-230 max forward speed. Do you prefer to slow down the guys behind us, or send them over top of us with an overtake of 20-30 knots? I see both all the time, is it just personal preference? Also, if given a descent and asked for max forward speed, I can do 240 knots (barberpole), if you let me do a slow 500-700fpm descent. I usually let the controller know if you let me descend at 500fpm in all the way, I can give you 240 knots, but usually they want the descent first. Personal preference again?

That's generally preference. It also depends how far from base you are and how busy we are. I make it a practice to ask Dash 8's their airspeed so I can plan accordingly.
 
I agree with 99% of this but I want to know what the thought process is when I'm clearly busy, number one is direct the marker and pulls back to 180 25 miles out.

I LUV that.

Say speed?
180 Whadda you need?
A right 360.
You have to understand some guys just aren't good at seeing the big picture and some of them might be busy with something else or perhaps it's something completely different. Depending on the situation getting "direct to the marker" would require slowing earlier. If you NEED a speed to make things work you probably should communicate that. We aren't mind readers.
 
You have to understand some guys just aren't good at seeing the big picture and some of them might be busy with something else or perhaps it's something completely different. Depending on the situation getting "direct to the marker" would require slowing earlier. If you NEED a speed to make things work you probably should communicate that. We aren't mind readers.

My post was mostly tongue in cheek, however. If you're direct to the marker 25 out well below glide path with your gear out and full flaps while the controller is slowing everyone else and firing off rapid fire vectors, that's a little beyond not good with the big picture.

That enters give me a heads up territory. If I need a speed I give it within reason, but I'm not about to give 7 speeds per plane for the 0.1% I speak of. I see people do that and I can't imagine the face palming in the cockpit.
 
The way I look at it is I'd rather deal with getting screwed 10% of the time then give ridiculously needless instructions and clearances the other 90% of the time. We all work with the people that are somehow "always busy" everytime they plug in....
 
If you're direct to the marker 25 out well below glide path with your gear out and full flaps while the controller is slowing everyone else and firing off rapid fire vectors, that's a little beyond not good with the big picture.
If you haven't assigned a speed you have nothing to complain about.... You don't know the configuration of the aircraft... We don't know where the other jets are located. This is akin to us pilots complaining about controllers not proactively giving us vectors around bad weather when the reality is either A) sometimes controllers can't/don't see it or B) they figure our onboard stuff is better and will wait for us to ask.

Moral of this story; If you want or need something ask... otherwise I'm going to fly the plane as I see fit because I'm not in tune with my ESP or whatever.
 
If you haven't assigned a speed you have nothing to complain about.... You don't know the configuration of the aircraft... We don't know where the other jets are located. This is akin to us pilots complaining about controllers not proactively giving us vectors around bad weather when the reality is either A) sometimes controllers can't/don't see it or B) they figure our onboard stuff is better and will wait for us to ask.

Moral of this story; If you want or need something ask... otherwise I'm going to fly the plane as I see fit because I'm not in tune with my ESP or whatever.

I'm not complaining. If #1 slows, I can rework a sequence and slide someone else in. I'm not sure why it appears you're being combative. I've not said anything slanderous unless you fly for the company in your avatar.

On the off chance you do, one of your crews blatantly ignored speeds today (no idea of their configuration, but they were 40 knots slower than assigned 4 miles before it was legal to do so, so 140 4 from the marker) and caused a go around. And yes, they said 140 when queried it isn't a guess on my part.

I'm not exactly sure what the moral here is, but I think it has something to do with you're probably not the .00001% I'm talking about who'd ignore anything anyway because they're the only ones in the sky. Don't take it personally.
 
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I'm not complaining. If #1 slows, I can rework a sequence and slide someone else in. I'm not sure why it appears you're being combative. I've not said anything slanderous unless you fly for the company in your avatar.

On the off chance you do, one of your crews blatantly ignored speeds today (no idea of their configuration, but they were 40 knots slower than assigned 4 miles before it was legal to do so, so 140 4 from the marker) and caused a go around. And yes, they said 140 when queried it isn't a guess on my part.

I'm not exactly sure what the moral here is, but I think it has something to do with you're probably not the .00001% I'm talking about who'd ignore anything anyway because they're the only ones in the sky. Don't take it personally.

I'm not being combative at all... I was merely stating facts; such as you don't know how we are configured and we don't know where the other planes are in the sky. Perhaps the lack of tone found with text is the cause of this misunderstanding. I tried to communicate understanding by offering the comparison in which pilots get wound up about not recieving vectors around bad weather... perhaps I just failed miserably in my communication. My bad.

With the "moral of the story" I was trying to convey that if controllers don't vocalize what they want (ie. "Keep your speed up you're #1 for the field") I might slow because at that point I'm trying to set up the plane early, the earlier the plane is configured the easier the workload is, and I don't know if others are following me or going to parallel runways etc.

I'm not arguing with you and I'm certainly not trying to take the jelly out of your donut... I'm saying there are things I can't see from your viewpoint and there are things you can't see from ours... and if we don't communicate effectively we both lose out. Enjoy the rest of your weekend @genot!
 
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