scooter2525
Very well Member
I'm sure there is a grammatical error in there somewhere.
SkyWest pilot pay package
- Thread starter Xcaliber
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SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
scooter2525 said:
They would first have to organize, otherwise they're simply at-will employees with very little rights at all. An unorganized labor group has no right to strike. At all.
scooter2525
Very well Member
I know you will disagree. And obviously say they should organize and join ALPA. But I think it's crap that they can't legally strike and have to unionize. Why would a union hold the ability to strike. Like trademark the procedure. Before you jump down my throat, help me understand how they are stuck between a rock and hard place. It seems to me if they wanted to all not show up, they wouldn't be held to the same standards as a union shop.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
scooter2525 said:
I'm not sure how you think it would make sense to allow at-will employees to engage in concerted self help. That's nonsensical. The company has the right to terminate at-will employees without cause, first of all, so who would be crazy enough to try to organize such a strike, even if it was legal? You would be discharged with no recourse at the mere mention of a strike.
But more importantly, government is in the business of protecting the overall population, not just you and your desires, so they want a process in place to end any authorized self help in order to return service to the consumer. If there is no union, then there is no organized leadership structure with any authority that can negotiate in order to end the strike, so that is clearly unacceptable. Chaos does not work to resolve disputes. A union needs to be in place to have authority to bargain to bring resolution.
Want to have rights? Then organize.
Beefy McGee
Well-Known Member
scooter2525
Very well Member
That makes sense to me now. So essentially, it would be individuals all together not showing up to work. At the same time. So it's not that the NMB won't. They just can't.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
scooter2525 said:
Well, it's both. It's illegal under the RLA, but it's also impractical because management can start firing people who would have no recourse, so it would collapse pretty quickly even if the law allowed it.
scooter2525
Very well Member
There is a law prohibiting it or when the firings go to court, it would most likely rule in favor of the company?
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
scooter2525 said:
The RLA prohibits it. So if you tried to do it, the company would just go to court and get an emergency injunction ordering you back to work immediately. If you didn't comply, the judge would hold you in contempt, send the ringleaders to jail, and then issue a fine that would be deducted from your pay checks until it was paid off. This is what happened with the New York transit strike, and that was only state law. If I remember right, the leaders were in jail for six days, and the workers had money deducted from their pay checks for something like three years.
scooter2525
Very well Member
Thanks for the explanation.
🦈💜
All dragon~
I thought this was relatively common knowledge amongst people in the industry.
Now me, on the surface, I don't like it. It seems wrong, to me, that an employee can be forced to work (or more to the point, prevented from withholding work), and a union can be handcuffed and precluded from doing one of the only things that a union appears to have the power to do. In short, it seems as though unions negotiating under the RLA have zero leverage whatsoever, and are forced to seek process through an NMB that appears, on the surface, to often be anti-labor. It has always looked to me as though, while the individual players are protected, the overall pay and benefits continue to worsen as time goes on.
However, I recall that in the past people have posted "Repeal the RLA!" threads, and those who understand the process far better than I—yourself, notably—universally decried that as foolish.
Can you offer a counterpoint to help me (and others) understand how the RLA isn't inherently anti-labor? I fully confess that I'm extremely ignorant about the subject and have never been part of a union, but from an outside point of view (on the outside of the inside...) it appears from the evidence I see that unions have basically no power, and are slowly losing the war... but I imagine I'm only getting one side of the story.
I realize that sounds like a loaded question. It's not. I respect your understanding of the situation, even where I don't like the answers you give to people. It's an honest question.
-Fox
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
The RLA actually works quite well when you have people on the NMB who want to administer it as it was designed (like we do now), instead of trying to push a political agenda (as we did under President Bush 43), and when the labor group works within its framework instead of trying to "go rogue." For the past six years, there has been a relatively pro-labor NMB. In cases where pilot groups have been stuck for extended periods of time, it isn't because the NMB is screwing them, but rather because those pilot groups haven't done their part to bargain in good faith.
But more importantly, the RLA provides labor with some pretty important protections. Because the RLA is federal labor law, it preempts state labor laws such as the so-called "right to work" laws. So even though I work in one of these anti-labor states with a "right to work" law, it never affected us. Get rid of the RLA, suddenly pilots are subject to the same draconian state labor laws that everyone else is. And there's a very good reason why you see labor go nuts when a "right to work" law is proposed in their state.
Suppose the RLA disappeared tomorrow and everyone was covered by the same laws as every other industry. How would that affect things? Well, first off, each domicile would be considered its own "shop." So instead of one union being elected to cover all pilots at Delta, you would instead have individual elections at Atlanta, Cincinnati, New York, Salt Lake, Detroit, and so on. Atlanta might be represented by ALPA, while Detroit was represented by the IBT, and Salt Lake by no one at all. So now management has the opportunity for an internal whipsaw. "You ALPA guys in Atlanta are just demanding too much, while these guys out in Salt Lake are willing to do the work for much less. It's cheaper for us to give them the work and just have them do some overnights in Atlanta, so we're cutting back flying for the ATL domicile and furloughing 50% of you. You know, unless you're willing to take concessions to match the Salt Lake guys." Think the regional whipsaw is bad? You ain't seen nothing yet.
And then there's the self help that pilots are so eager to get to so quickly. Here's the thing: self-help goes both ways. Without the RLA, either party would be able to declare an impasse and resort to self-help without release. Yes, that means that you could strike without someone in government giving you the go ahead. But it also means that management could impose new terms unilaterally without getting released. Or that they could lock you out without pay. The RLA process protects both sides, not just management. Pilots just never think about the fact that management has options for self help, too.
The RLA is imperfect legislation, but it's far better than the alternative. The reality is that pilots cause most of their own problems in not getting released, and if pilots play the game right, things go much better for them. But pilots are usually too emotional, so they do stupid things and then wonder why the NMB isn't on their side.
Autothrust Blue
"Well, on the Brasilia..."
There would quickly be a bunch of, um, how do you say, operational problems?
(Plus, like everyone else, we're thin, and they do need my butt in that seat.)
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
And then there would quickly be a, um, how do you say, court injunction? Being held in contempt of court is a bitch. Wouldn't recommend it.
Autothrust Blue
"Well, on the Brasilia..."
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
No, thankfully I'm not that stupid. 
scooter2525
Very well Member
mNo, thankfully I'm not that stupid.
Emphasis added.
Oh, they're good.
My commuter hotel in SLC (which I may be returning to because I'm finally more senior in SLC on the 320 than DTW now and it's loads closer) serves them with the breakfast buffet.
scooter2525
Very well Member
Perfect. Switch just in time for me to move.
Maximilian_Jenius
Super User
Are they just basically scalloped potatoes? Cause that's what they look like.
