SKYW Pay package results

The GoJets union is a sham. They're Teamsters in there with a bunch of management pupets to run it. That company has been, and continues to be a way to subvert another company's contract. How that wasn't titled as union busting by a judge is way beyond me.

Freedom A listers are in the same group, now Freedom is on the same list as all the other Mesa pilots.

GO! is hilarious! I mean seriously, an $86 million law suit!? You can't write that kinda comedy! Are these guys on the Mesa list, or is it a seperate list?
 
FlyChicaga said:
I'd like to know your position on union companies that do the same, such as GoJets, Freedom, and GO!/Mesa.
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Well, the last three you mention are all the same airline represented by the same MEC. That MEC and pilot group were screwed over by a non-union alter-ego carrier (Freedumb A) and had no choice but to accept that contract to keep their flying from being outsourced to the non-union subsidiary. So, once again, a non-union carrier screws over a union carrier.

As for GoJet, that's not really a union airline. The management pilots that started GoJet for Hulas installed a non-airline division of the IBT just to keep the real unions out.
 
jtrain609 said:
I could get by with the non union gigs if they didn't always happen to be undercutting folks that are trying to raise the bar.

Colgan flying 76 seat aircraft for less than Express is operating 50 seat aircraft? That's counter productive.

Skywest flying 86 seat aircraft for less than Express is operating 50 seat aircraft? That's counter productive.

I'll stop towing the union line on those shops as soon as they're not low balling other folks while touting "controlling costs," knowing full well the only cost an airline can control are it's labor costs.
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How about these airlines:

Trans States Airlines: ALPA, 5th year CA rate for EMB-145 is $59/hr
GoJet Airlines: Teamsters, 5th year CA rate for CRJ-700 is $66/hr
Mesaba: ALPA, 5th year CA rate for CRJ-900 is $66/hr, CRJ-200 is $62/hr
Mesa: ALPA, 5th year CA rate for CRJ-900 is $69/hr, CRJ-700 is $64/hr, CRJ-200/EMB-145 is $61/hr

ExpressJet: ALPA, 5th year CA rate for EMB-145 is $69/hr
ASA: ALPA, 5th year CA rate for CRJ-700 is $69/hr, for CRJ-200 is $66/hr
SkyWest: Non-Union, 5th year CA rate for CRJ-700/900 is $69/hr, for CRJ-200 is $66/hr

Source: Airline Pilot Central
 
ExpressJet and ASA: industry-leading contracts

TSA: old contract currently in negotiations while flying is being outsourced to an alter-ego pseudo-scab operation

GoJet: aforementioned pseudo-scab operation

Mesaba: dragged through the bankruptcy courts where management specifically mentioned the single payrate at Skywest for up to 99-seat aircraft as a reason for needing concessions

Mesa: already discussed
 
PCL_128 said:
Well, the last three you mention are all the same airline represented by the same MEC. That MEC and pilot group were screwed over by a non-union alter-ego carrier (Freedumb A) and had no choice but to accept that contract to keep their flying from being outsourced to the non-union subsidiary. So, once again, a non-union carrier screws over a union carrier.
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Good point. I made a more clarifying post above relating pay rates at the regional level. I left Pinnacle out of it, because we all know the situation they are in at this moment.

PCL_128 said:
As for GoJet, that's not really a union airline. The management pilots that started GoJet for Hulas installed a non-airline division of the IBT just to keep the real unions out.
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So even though they are union, they are non-union in your eyes?

Look, I'm not defending the ratification of the SkyWest pay proposal, nor am I condoning the GoJet and Freedom fiascos. My point is, we cannot paint with a broad brush when the dealing with issues like this.

What I am doing is arguing for a more respectable approach to unionizing the pilots, in whatever way, shape, or form that may be. The key here is truly uniting the pilots, rather than trying to use strong-arm tactics to force them to join our club. I personally believe these strong-arm tactics are the biggest reason the ALPA drives have failed at SkyWest, Colgan, CommutAir, and Chicago Express, not to mention the drives by US Airways and American Eagle to disband their ALPA affiliations.

We are not going to unite pilots by pissing each other off. All that does is breed distrust and hatred between the various groups. I honestly cannot believe some senior ALPA leadership would actually suggest a jumpseat war with non-union airlines. How soon we forget many of the pilots at these non-union airlines are former ALPA members in good standing who were furloughed in the industry downturn after 9/11? Do these former ALPA pilots (some who were members for over a decade or more) suddenly become the enemy because they found other employment after they were furloughed en-mass?

Apparently those former US Air and TWA pilots now flying at JetBlue are undeserving of the union-negotiated jumpseat benefits after years of support to ALPA.
 
FlyChicaga said:
So even though they are union, they are non-union in your eyes?
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They're non-union in pretty much everyone's eyes. Even other IBT airlines don't recognize them. The Horizon MEC issued a letter formally disavowing the GoJet unit of the IBT after they were certified. This is not a legitimate union operation.

Apparently those former US Air and TWA pilots now flying at JetBlue are undeserving of the union-negotiated jumpseat benefits after years of support to ALPA.
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The ALPA leader who brought this up said that he thinks we should ask for union cards from pilots that are jumpseating. Furloughed ALPA members still have an ALPA card, it just says "Furloughed Status." I happen to think that that's an excellent idea.
 
PCL_128 said:
If you want the overall best contracts for pay and QOL, then ExpressJet and ASA are your best bets.
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ASA? Are you kidding me? Let me get this straight, its okay to work for ASA, but not for SkyWest? You do realize that ASA is OWNED by SkyWest right?

And you're talking about ASA being a good place to work for QOL, but we sure have a lot of ASA pilots come over to SkyWest for better QOL.
 
FlyChicaga said:
Look, I'm not defending the ratification of the SkyWest pay proposal, nor am I condoning the GoJet and Freedom fiascos. My point is, we cannot paint with a broad brush when the dealing with issues like this.

What I am doing is arguing for a more respectable approach to unionizing the pilots, in whatever way, shape, or form that may be. The key here is truly uniting the pilots, rather than trying to use strong-arm tactics to force them to join our club. I personally believe these strong-arm tactics are the biggest reason the ALPA drives have failed at SkyWest, Colgan, CommutAir, and Chicago Express, not to mention the drives by US Airways and American Eagle to disband their ALPA affiliations.

We are not going to unite pilots by pissing each other off. All that does is breed distrust and hatred between the various groups.
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:yeahthat:

I stand by my "counterproductive" comment. Isn't the long range goal to get all of the pilots united under the union banner? How well do you think that jumpseat wars and "scab-like" rhetoric works to get non-union pilot groups to come over to your way of thinking? Do you guys really think that calling other pilots "back-stabbing scum" will make them want to join your side???

:confused:

"You can catch more flies with honey than vinegar" is a cliché because it is true. Don't be suprised when you spread vinegar over everything around yourself and the flies go elsewhere.
 
Ok guys, what honey would you recommend?

Skywest pilots tossed the union idea out the door for the third time in 10 years at a rate of what? 67% of the pilot group? It's great to say, "Let's all sing koombya around the campfire and hold hands," until you lose your job because Skywest was able to underbid your company.

In my mind, that's called lowballing your buddies.

Somebody will chime in here and say that it's capitalism and that's the free market economy, but I think there's something wrong with that model and I have to question whether it's truely sustaining, or whether it'll crumble under it's own weight given enough time.

In fact, I'm reading a book about that very concept right now! I'll let you know how it turns out, but I don't buy this concept that we all need to be as self interested as possible to get by in life.
 
PCL_128 said:
Start by going to Airline Pilot Central (airlinepilotcentral.com) and clicking on the "Airlines" link on the left. Some of the regionals will be listed under the "Nationals" section. Each airline has its own page with info on payrates, fleet size, retirement, etc... They also tell what union represents each pilot group. If you click on an airline and it says "Union: None," then you should cross it off your list of prospective employers.
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And thats what happens when you drink too much ALPA flavored Kool-Aid.:argue:
 
So sitting here sipping my morning coffee (Vail Mountain Roasters, darn good java btw), I am pondering about how to respond here. Or if I even should. See, thing is I actually agree with most of the 'hard line' ideas, not the rhetoric but the ideas in general. For instance, the pay package results were indeed crap and the fact that we remain non-union is simply bogus.

That said, I agree with SteveC that the hard line rhetoric is going to get us no where fast. Having been on the ALPA OC and knowing the 'pulse' (however faint it might be) of our pilot group I think I can speak with some authority on the issue. Versus a couple of you who have 'talked to a SKYW guy' the other day. Sorry, if you don't actually work here your inside 'knowledge' runs on thin ice.

Listen up folks 'cause I am growing tired of repeating it...No amount of hard line BS is going to affect this entire pilot group in a positive way. This is, and should be a 'hearts & minds' campaign. You might 'scare' a few into 'our' way of thinking but it isn't going to be many of them. For the most part we have a content pilot group who mostly trusts management. To win the 'big one' we are going to have sell these folks on true benefits of belonging to truly organized union and looking long term. The majority of this pilot group, say less than 2 years of employment looks as far as next week. Not 5 or even 20 years down the road.

That said, perhaps a different approach in education needs to taken as well. Here is why. For the majority of this pilot group they have no reason to trust an outside body such as ALPA will improve things much at all. Fact is, SKYW has several pay and QOL items that are on par or better than most unionized regionals. Yes, the BHO and some of our rates need work when compared to a couple of you, but overall things are not that bad here. Here are some highlights...bonus program - I now get over $4,000 extra per year on top of my pay, how many other regionals have this? -, cancellation pay, and duty rig, to name a few. Some unionized regionals do not have these QOL items. Our management does a very good job at keeping the masses at least content and happy with the status quo. We have to find a new way around that.

The point being, is that we are going to have to educate them in a productive way about the benefits of having a real contract that can be continuously approved upon industry wide. Also, the benefits that belonging to or at least having an affiliation with ALPA are hugely important. At this point, I honestly feel our best bet for real organization is something similar to SWAPA or American Airlines internal union.

Again, I am not beating the management drum or arguing whose airline is better. Fact is, we all have areas to improve upon and can be envious of each other's QOL items from time to time. What we need to focus on, is getting SkyWest a real contract first, then start working together to raise that heavy bar.

As you may have gathered, I am not a doom and gloom type guy. I enjoy working here, but we have some things IMHO that need tweaked in a major way. I want be a part of the solution not the problem.

So we all have a choice here, work together, educate this group and help us help you. Or, take your hard line stance and simply give up on this pilot group. If you choose the latter you will likely regret it down the road.

----

Now aside from that post above, I feel I need to address couple of more things....

Train - stick with that facts man. You know we don't have 86 seats in those stupid airplanes. Which, btw I am happy to report I still haven't stepped foot in. Also keep in mind XJT has taken over some of 'our' flying as of late. But you don't see me screaming that 'you' under bid us and are eroding the industry. We gotta stand together and stand strong yo.

PCL_128 - As I mentioned before, I agree with the your overall viewpoints. However I choose to fight the good fight from within. Alienating the likes of me and those who share my views do us all no good. You are joining SKYW management in helping to split the pilot group when we should be uniting. Your attacks from the outside are very counter productive. Help us educate the folks in a positive light, but don't spread the doom and gloom.
 
bike21 said:
Help us educate the folks in a positive light, but don't spread the doom and gloom.
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I tried that, Nick. I spent plenty of my days off out in SLC and DEN working Skywest events for ALPA. I used the same arguments that you're proposing: belonging to a professional organization and so forth. It doesn't work. Your pilots (or 65% of them, anyway) are so self-absorbed that they are pretty much unreachable. I held out hope, and I did my part to win hearts and minds, but this last representational vote has pretty much convinced me that your pilots are hopeless. A more hard-line approach seems to be in order.
 
Nick,


Good points, and I'll respond to what you've directed at me:

-It doesn't matter if you put 86 seats in them or not, your CRJ-900's are F100 sized aircraft, which deserve F100 pay rates. Pay rates should be based on weight of the aircraft, not the number of seats. I could yell and scream about your 90,000 lbs. airframe, but it doesn't sound as good :)

-We, unfortunately, took ASA's flying, not Skywest's. You guys couldn't get that flying because of United's LAX scope issues, correct?
 
PCL_128 said:
I tried that, Nick. I spent plenty of my days off out in SLC and DEN working Skywest events for ALPA. I used the same arguments that you're proposing: belonging to a professional organization and so forth. It doesn't work. Your pilots (or 65% of them, anyway) are so self-absorbed that they are pretty much unreachable. I held out hope, and I did my part to win hearts and minds, but this last representational vote has pretty much convinced me that your pilots are hopeless. A more hard-line approach seems to be in order.
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I feel your pain. I too, was deflated after this drive and after the recent pay package results. I even started my own educational flyer campaign for the pay package vote! :)

If you choose your way of doing things then that is obviously your choice, but keep in mind what I said before. Work with us, not against us. It seems that you are level headed enough to know that the broad brush strokes against the entire group won't work. I just ask you reserve your hard line stance for the most dense of fellows :)

jtrain609 said:
Nick,


Good points, and I'll respond to what you've directed at me:

-It doesn't matter if you put 86 seats in them or not, your CRJ-900's are F100 sized aircraft, which deserve F100 pay rates. Pay rates should be based on weight of the aircraft, not the number of seats. I could yell and scream about your 90,000 lbs. airframe, but it doesn't sound as good :)

-We, unfortunately, took ASA's flying, not Skywest's. You guys couldn't get that flying because of United's LAX scope issues, correct?
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I agree with you on the aircraft weight issue. Just arguing semantics really :)

Oh, and XJT took some of 'our' flying out of SLC recently. You are now doing IDA for sure and some others I believe. Will have to check specifics.
 
Yeah, and you guys are making sure that GPU's are inop and blocking us in the alleyway in SLC too. Last I heard one of the Delta big wigs had to come have a talk with somebody over at Skywest because of it.

I have no idea if that stuff is on the CPA or if it's being done at risk. If it's at risk, then indeed we came in and stole your flying. If it's the CPA, we just go where Delta tells us to go.
 
jtrain609 said:
Yeah, and you guys are making sure that GPU's are inop and blocking us in the alleyway in SLC too. Last I heard one of the Delta big wigs had to come have a talk with somebody over at Skywest because of it.

I have no idea if that stuff is on the CPA or if it's being done at risk. If it's at risk, then indeed we came in and stole your flying. If it's the CPA, we just go where Delta tells us to go.
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LOL! Those -200 APUs are craptastic. Actually, the APU itself if fine, but the inlet door has major issues. It would seem a permanent fix would be on the horizon, but alas I have the bottle start procedure memorized :)
 
jtrain609 said:
Yeah, and you guys are making sure that GPU's are inop and blocking us in the alleyway in SLC too. Last I heard one of the Delta big wigs had to come have a talk with somebody over at Skywest because of it.
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You ain't kiddin. In a station with SKW ops and not DAL ops, they'll lie to mainline about whose fault a delay was, and then the RJ pilots have to call the CPO back and get the delay code changed back to SKW ops because it inevitably is on them in some select stations where they seem to be in a childish war against their competitor. But if they wanna get caught assigning wrong delay codes and sue mainline, they can go ahead and do that. The DAL gate agents have a pretty strong consensus about which contract carrier they prefer, but I won't bring that into this thread.
 
PCL_128 said:
ASA is a union company with a union contract. Skywest is not.
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Yeah, but its a union company with a union contract that is OWNED by SkyWest. If you support ASA, you support SkyWest. To say its okay to work for ASA but not SkyWest is like saying we must boycot Anheuser Bush but its okay to drink Budweiser. :confused:

And to all of you who say we are lowballing the industry, take a look at the frickin numbers dammit!! We are getting competetive pay. Look at Great Lakes if you want to point fingers for pay issues. Look at Mesa if you want to point fingers for work rules and QOL. Is it better to work for a carrier that will make you miserable? But Mesa has a union, so that means ALPA has their backs right? People, please look at the overall package here. SkyWest's work rules beat out most other's union or otherwise, and they treat their employees very well. Why is that so bad?
 
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